Fly fishing without flies. What are we doing?

[krusty]

A more astute selection of watercraft would enhance your possibilities considerably. Jes' sayin'....

An insightful observation...but you know that anybody who would own and drive a vehicle with archaic rear drum brakes would likely also insist on the use of a hammer, when a more appropriate tool is a screwdriver.

 

[Rob Allen]

OP said bugs are gone. I called that out as fake news and posted a picture of bugs. Am I wrong?

And as far as being self-centered, aren't we all?



Hang in there dude.

Oh and congrats on the new job. Hopefully you crush it and make a ton of money. Then you can pay for dinner at the Grizzly Bar when we finally meet up.

For years I tried to get I to the grizzly bar but they kept irregular hours and I never made it on.
We'll be in Montana I think it's the 8th- 18th of July, hope to catch some salmonfly activity up high..

 

[Matt B]

I spent 15 minutes of online research and it seems like maybe light pollution and development are impacting lightning bugs as much or more than our chemical warfare on invertebrates.

Light Pollution - Firefly.org

ABOUT LIGHT POLLUTION “Darkness is as essential to our biological welfare, to our internal clockwork, as light itself.” – Verlyn Klinkenborg, National Geographic, Nov. 2008 Fireflies communicate in a language of light. They flash to signal for mates. Scientists believe they may flash to drive...

www.firefly.org

 

[Brian in OR.]

A select passage from that link:

"They estimate that land-based insects, which make up the majority of species, have been declining at nearly 1% per year, or almost 9% per decade. But during the same period, the small proportion of insects which live in freshwater experienced a 1% annual increase, or just over 11% per decade.

Does this give us cause to be relatively cheerful (or at least, less miserable)? Hardly."

There's obviously a lot more going on in that link, including a link to the actual study. I'd be cautious about thinking it's just about "how they interpret the numbers." Kind of like a snowball in Congress.

https://quillette.com/2021/07/25/the-insect-apocalypse-that-never-was/

 

[Flymph]

Over 50 years of fishing lakes in North Central WA tell me this: larger chironomid hatches are declining, callibaetis hatches are declining, traveling sedge hatch is now rare, damsel and dragon hatches are in decline, and trout are not as chunky and certainly not as plentiful as they used to be.

Many of the shallow lakes have seen multiple years of drought and have had to endure eutrophication. Many of the lakes have had bass, bluegill, crappie, and/or sunfish illegally planted. These lakes have had to endure many years of rehab (rotenone) which is not supposed to affect the ecology (health) of said waters??????

I don't think the bugs are gone or, as someone mentioned earlier, there would be no trout. But, IMHO, they are definitely declining. Is this misery on my part, "YES". I greatly miss the fishing that was here 40 years ago.

I love seeing Swimmy's fishing pics of big hog browns that he catches on exotic looking streamers. My point to Swimmy would be this; the fishing was incredible on the Madison in the early to mid 1970s on just about any dry fly that you could skitter across two feet of water!

I would like to hear from others on this forum who have fished lakes for a long time and listen to their thoughts on the decline on bugs and what they think has caused it.

Iveofloe, triploid junkie, irafly, etc. - what say you?

 

[adamcu280]

https://quillette.com/2021/07/25/the-insect-apocalypse-that-never-was/

This reminds me of the Worm vs. Hilborn battles around fisheries collapse by 2048.

My recommendation: stick to primary sources if at all possible.

 

[Dustin Chromers]

I spent 15 minutes of online research and it seems like maybe light pollution and development are impacting lightning bugs as much or more than our chemical warfare on invertebrates.

Light Pollution - Firefly.org

ABOUT LIGHT POLLUTION “Darkness is as essential to our biological welfare, to our internal clockwork, as light itself.” – Verlyn Klinkenborg, National Geographic, Nov. 2008 Fireflies communicate in a language of light. They flash to signal for mates. Scientists believe they may flash to drive...

www.firefly.org

I knew it. I want cities in total darkness. If there was regulations on the amount of light you could emit in urban areas that would be the answer.

 

[Canuck from Kansas]

This reminds me of the Worm vs. Hilborn battles around fisheries collapse by 2048.

My recommendation: stick to primary sources if at all possible.

We do find nonsensical gems like this, apparently from the Sierra Club:

"Honeybees are at no risk of dying off. While diseases, parasites and other threats are certainly real problems for beekeepers, the total number of managed honeybees worldwide has risen 45 percent over the last half century."

Hmmm, this sounds like since salmon farms have increased XX% over the last 50 years, salmon are at no risk - how many of you would agree with such a statement?

There's also this kind of crap "A 2020 study from German researchers led by Dr. Roel van Klink represented the largest and most definitive study on global insect populations at the time of its publication." - the link doesn't take you to any scientific paper, it links back to the authors own blog.

Gotta love the downplay actual scientific research, however flawed, with editorials; try finding scientific research that refutes the study, then we have something to talk about.

cheers

 

[Canuck from Kansas]

I knew it. I want cities in total darkness. If there was regulations on the amount of light you could emit in urban areas that would be the answer.

So true, light pollution's a serious issue for us folks trying to observe stuff in the sky:

Stuff in the Sky

Gonna resurrect this over here, well because I can and because this is the only social media I'm on and can post stuff. I'll start with our old friend, the Orion nebula (Running Man at about 10 o'clock), it is just so stunning. You can actually see the this nebula with a good pair of...

www.pnwflyfishing.com

cheers

 

[bobduck]

https://deschutesriveralliance.wordpress.com/tag/aquatic-insects/ Of concern to us fly fishers is this report of an ongoing problem. Years ago I posted in the Westfly forum that I was experiencing poorer dry fly fishing on the D and only reply was "learn to fish with nymphs" which missed the point. Of course this problem is specific to the D due to PGE's activity at the Round Butte Dam.

 

[Dustin Chromers]

So true, light pollution's a serious issue for us folks trying to observe stuff in the sky:

Stuff in the Sky

Gonna resurrect this over here, well because I can and because this is the only social media I'm on and can post stuff. I'll start with our old friend, the Orion nebula (Running Man at about 10 o'clock), it is just so stunning. You can actually see the this nebula with a good pair of...

www.pnwflyfishing.com

cheers

#blackoutforbugs

Did I do it right. I'm still new at the tweeter.

 

[Tallguy]

Seriously though I hope this doesn't come off as conspiracy theory but I firmly believe that there will be major consequences to the broad scale application of pesticides concerning pollinators and insects at the base of the food web. You just can't apply in mass something that kills that broad spectrum and expect no collateral damage. Defoliants will likely have similar consequences as well. It's like nobody can weed a garden anymore.

Not a conspiracy there actually.. Like so many pollution issues, it's already happening in places in the world. In the future, we may be using our fly tying feathers to hand pollinate our fruit trees, assuming we still want fruit to eat. Regions of China have been hand pollinating pear and apple trees since the 1980s once the local pollinators disappeared:

Pollinating Orchards By Hand | Lessons From Sichuan, China

Learn why farmers in China’s Sichuan Province have resorted to pollinating their orchards by hand

www.foodunfolded.com

We need to learn to listen to what the world is trying to tell us about ourselves.

 

[swimmy]

I love seeing Swimmy's fishing pics of big hog browns that he catches on exotic looking streamers. My point to Swimmy would be this; the fishing was incredible on the Madison in the early to mid 1970s on just about any dry fly that you could skitter across two feet of water!

Thanks!

I understand your point. I try not to get stuck in that mindset. In the 2000's there were folks talking about how much better it was in the 90's, 90's the 80's, 80's the 70's, and on and on. Walk into Dan Bailey's and look at all of the trout on the wall. Insane!

Lewis and Clark were catching cutthroat on the Missouri River in North Dakota in the early 1800's. But now we've built dams and the created some of the best tailwaters in the world: Big Horn, Madison, Beaverhead, Missouri. Things change. Some for the better, some for the worse.

So yeah, I could focus on how great it used to be. I know a couple of folks in Bozeman who do exactly that and they are kind of beatdowns. That's not my style or personality. Instead, I just try to make the most of my short time here with like minded friends.

On WFF, I started three threads about positive things that happened locally regarding conservation. One was lands outside of Yellowstone being protected under federal law, another was three rivers declared Wild and Scenic, and the last was about a bill including massive spending on our National Parks. Those threads got very little action. Not a peep from many in this same thread. Weird, I'd think we'd celebrate any and all conservation wins.

Longputt is right. Fear and misery are much easier to sell.

 

[Canuck from Kansas]

On WFF, I started three threads about positive things that happened locally regarding conservation. One was lands outside of Yellowstone being protected under federal law, another was three rivers declared Wild and Scenic, and the last was about a bill including massive spending on our National Parks. Those threads got very little action. Not a peep from many in this same thread. Weird, I'd think we'd celebrate any and all conservation wins.

Longputt is right. Fear and misery are much easier to sell.

I would beg to argue. In the threads you sight above that you posted, the solution has already been enacted, so very little discussion is needed, just harahs - the other threads, we are either in search of a solution or the solution is yet too be enacted, leading to vigorous discussion.

Just more food for thought.

Cheers

 

[adamcu280]

In addition to Canuck's thoughts above, here are a few more musings to ponder re. the possible lack of desired traction for Swimmy's conservation win threads on WFF.

1. Some of us haven't checked WFF since the migration. If Swimmy posted his conservation win threads post-PNWFF, it's entirely possible they weren't seen.
2. If the aforementioned threads were posted pre-PNWFF, at least one person posting in this thread had Swimmy on ignore over there.

There's no need to conclude that there's a big "Fear and Misery" conspiracy when it could be much simpler than that.

 

[Dustin Chromers]

In addition to Canuck's thoughts above, here are a few more musings to ponder re. the possible lack of desired traction for Swimmy's conservation win threads on WFF.

1. Some of us haven't checked WFF since the migration. If Swimmy posted his conservation win threads post-PNWFF, it's entirely possible they weren't seen.
2. If the aforementioned threads were posted pre-PNWFF, at least one person posting in this thread had Swimmy on ignore over there.

There's no need to conclude that there's a big "Fear and Misery" conspiracy when it could be much simpler than that.

Sound theories for sure. However when watching the nightly news I would say they market fear and misery because it works. Fear is the single largest lever on human behaviour and motivation. This fact has allowed dictators and others with a will to power to manipulate populations into doing and thinking things that are not of their good nature. Fear gets traction at a primal level and is a hell of a pry bar.

Fear in itself isn't inherently bad. I hate "no fear" t shirts. Aside from being lame and corny they are straight wrong. Fear can keep you alive. A minor amount of fear can bring increased concentration and or increased athletic performance. Practitioners of high risk sport in general tend to perform best when they rated their level of anxiety or fear at a moderate to lower level. Absence of this emotion led to lesser performance. Musicians were similar.

My apologies for drifting a bit but I felt it relevant. The misery part I'm less familiar with as a concept and study. But fear should not be discounted in its primal importance and it's known efficacy for getting people to do things. Like the old saying goes, "a cornered and fearful animal is both unpredictable and capable of about any surprise."

 

[adamcu280]

Sound theories for sure. However when watching the nightly news I would say they market fear and misery because it works. Fear is the single largest lever on human behaviour and motivation. This fact has allowed dictators and others with a will to power to manipulate populations into doing and thinking things that are not of their good nature. Fear gets traction at a primal level and is a hell of a pry bar.

Fear in itself isn't inherently bad. I hate "no fear" t shirts. Aside from being lame and corny they are straight wrong. Fear can keep you alive. A minor amount of fear can bring increased concentration and or increased athletic performance. Practitioners of high risk sport in general tend to perform best when they rated their level of anxiety or fear at a moderate to lower level. Absence of this emotion led to lesser performance. Musicians were similar.

My apologies for drifting a bit but I felt it relevant. The misery part I'm less familiar with as a concept and study. But fear should not be discounted in its primal importance and it's known efficacy for getting people to do things. Like the old saying goes, "a cornered and fearful animal is both unpredictable and capable of about any surprise."

Of course, in the big scheme of things "If it bleeds it leads" is a common tactic of nightly news broadcasts. I also totally agree with fear being a powerful factor in getting people to do things.

My post that you quoted is only referring to Swimmy's comment where he's pondering the reason why his conservation threads on WFF didn't get the "action" he wanted. It seems like he's insinuating that his threads were quiet because people here would rather focus on the negative (fear and misery) vs. celebrate conservation wins, and I'm saying it could be much simpler than that.

 

[Flymph]

Sound theories for sure. However when watching the nightly news I would say they market fear and misery because it works. Fear is the single largest lever on human behaviour and motivation. This fact has allowed dictators and others with a will to power to manipulate populations into doing and thinking things that are not of their good nature. Fear gets traction at a primal level and is a hell of a pry bar.

Fear in itself isn't inherently bad. I hate "no fear" t shirts. Aside from being lame and corny they are straight wrong. Fear can keep you alive. A minor amount of fear can bring increased concentration and or increased athletic performance. Practitioners of high risk sport in general tend to perform best when they rated their level of anxiety or fear at a moderate to lower level. Absence of this emotion led to lesser performance. Musicians were similar.

My apologies for drifting a bit but I felt it relevant. The misery part I'm less familiar with as a concept and study. But fear should not be discounted in its primal importance and it's known efficacy for getting people to do things. Like the old saying goes, "a cornered and fearful animal is both unpredictable and capable of about any surprise."

I will call year fear and raise you three hates! For every fear factor I see on nightly news, and your are right, there are many, there are at least three "hates" being espoused/exposed.

 

[swimmy]

SFR - Here's some good news!

www.pnwflyfishing.com

 

[Coach Potter]

Fear is an incredibly strong emotion and it's a powerful marketing tool but I don't think it's a very constructive motivator...at least not for everyone.