NFR A government proposal to kill a half-million owls
- Thread starter RCF
- Start date
Non-fishing related
Their fate is tied to the fate of PNW old growth forest. Protect them, protect old growth forest, in my view.
Rob Allen
Life of the Party
In my view though I agree with you it's a horrible tactic. You're essentially lying about what you're doing. Want the forests protected then sell the public on the value of the forest not the value of owls. So much of the environmental movement is based on these lies. I 100% agree with protecting our remaining old growth forests. I believe in doing it by being honest not by finding a work around like owls. I want the forests protected because the forest has value apart from being home to rare species.
I strongly disagree with the any means necessary approach.
I can see where you're coming from. Glad we're in the same page about wanting to protect old growth forests. But I think spotted owls, and other endangered species, also have value and are worth protecting.
Rob Allen
Life of the Party
I agree spotted owls have value.. question is, how much? How many millions should we spend in a likely doomed to fail attempt to save them?
How much political leverage are they worth? The environmental movement has already alienated everyone remotely associated with the logging industry, now we're seeking to alienate the entire animal rights community.
I have absolutely no dog in this fight I just thinking out loud.
But saving the old growth (which we both seen to agree is worth it) will save the spotted owls, too! Two birds with one stone, heh
This is not true.
This is also not true. Saving the little old growth that is left, on its own, will not save spotted owls. Hence the barred owl shoot.But saving the old growth (which we both seen to agree is worth it) will save the spotted owls, too! Two birds with one stone, heh
Also need to preserve forest that isn't old growth yet, but is developing old growth and mature forest characteristics.
+1
My closest and dearest friend is a timber land holder and very much an environmentalist.
I also am not in support of cutting true old growth. There is so little left. Fire is part of what happens to these ancient forests though and if we want to be hands off I'm for hands off in these special forests. I don't agree with the new school thought that second growth is old growth though. They are two different things and anyone spending real time in both knows the difference as does wildlife.
The fact that most mills are simply not capable of taking the type of oversize logs old growth produces is a harbinger of it staying on the ground unless it's exported or hauled long profit prohibitive distances in many cases. Federal and state wood cannot be exported as logs. Private can but I am wholly against such practices as it robs the community of working that resource into value added product.The simple market realites are likely doing more to conserve old growth with little to no effort than the loudest protest. This is passive market conservation if you will. It is a benefit of the fact there is so little left that mills in large are not tooled to work it.
Spotted owls will nest in second growth. This was hotly debated in my area some time ago but I have seen it with my own eyes. Sadly a few of the sites I had knowledge of were studied extensively to a degree where the owls left. This timber was on the ground and turned into boards in record time once the ownership could confirm no owl presence and the state was forced to give the ok.
Why is this important or interesting? Well it might not be if you aren't into timber or owls. I think both are rather cool so I'm interested. I look at this as a tale and parable of where one spends energy. The original owl wars in my area served to divide and degrade credibility in the eyes of opposing parties. It was a sad story of a very non cooperative conflict where industry and conservation lost. Surely they would not have been tight friends but the dialogue was really ugly and it got dirty and all respect and hearing got drowned out in a cacaphony of name calling etc.
Spend your resources wisely. Be it timber or conservation energy and funds. Fight the fight that has greatest effect. Be precise, be effective, be diplomatic if you can. Many times I see sales protested just for the sake of that's what's hot right now when down the way there is a real keystone that goes without notice cause the Olympia set hasn't hiked there. At this point I fully expect industry and conservation can live with one another provided each has reasonable goals and listens to the other in a genuine way. Compromise is the art of getting things done. Maybe I'm too idealistic. At any rate thanks for reading this and hearing me out if you got this far.
Rob Allen
Life of the Party
I think what we are seeing a lot of is hatred of certain industries. Some in the environmental movement see things like stopping a timber sale, stopping a mine from being created or the removal of a dam as being a success just because they hate logging, mining and dams. Stopping all development seems to be the goal. Washington just passed a ban on the sale of new Natural gas appliances without regard for the fact that THE ONLY positive action taken on climate change was the introduction of Natural gas as an alternative to coal. This law is a HUGE jump backwards for climate change but it was passed because people hate the oil and gas industry..
I'm for killing the owls if the government can show me how these actions WILL without a doubt restore spotted owls.. If it's just more "well it's all we can do" I'm not interested. Like closing rivers to fishing because it's the only thing they can control.. had enough of that nonsense.
better to do nothing than to do things that won't ensure survival.
JimTravers¤£a!!Travers
Steelhead
They wouldn't have a problem if those mines were bit pits!!! They allow these guys to keep mining bit no matter what. Open season!!! In one of the highest bit producing regions!!
Washington state did not pass any ban on Natural gas appliances. That just factually did not happen. So while you may view it as a huge jump backwards, I think it is best viewed through the truthful lense of "things that never actually happened". As far as reducing coal consumption goes, that would be difficult to be accomplished on the state level, here in Wa state. Coal accounts for as much as 4% of our energy supply. So even if it did happen (it did not), it's difficult to see how it would represent a huge step back since we don't really rely on coal at all.
The state does a number of things to disuade people from using natural gas and wood as energy sources. The state energy code really does push electric heat pumps for heating and cooling and it icentivizes installing solar. It also mandates increased insulation/ better windows depending on other choices that are made for new construction. The building industry hates the energy code in general. It does certainly add to the cost of new home construction. The newest version just went into effect and it was far more robust than the prior. At present, you can comply with the energy code for a new home while using natutral gas.
The state has pushed PSe to begin planning for getting away from natural gas. They have kept PSE from giving incentives and rebates for natural gas appliances.
The state really does not have the ability or will to force people to retro-fit homes. Nearly all legistlation that require conservation measures in single family homes are implemented at the point of getting a buildng permit. There may be some way that the state mandates that mechanical permits not be granted for natural gas appliances. I think that would be pretty darned tough to pull off though. Local jurisdictions would probably push back, from what I have seen. Very few local building services divisions wants that sort of headache. There is also the option on the part of the homeowner of not getting a permit.
There have been bills presented that would not allow installation of new gas lines. They have yet to pass the house and Senate. I find that it's important to deal with the truth and not try to fight made up problems. In Washington State there is no ban on gas appliances or requirement that new construction not utillize natural gas.
Always certain, often wrong.
