Non-Fly When the tuna are being funky while keyed-in on small bait

[Evan B]

Thus was the game the last few days which really made it tough for a lot of boats, especially those who stuck to the usually very productive troll programs.

Fish were jumping everywhere, but didn't seem to want to eat out of the troll spread, and seemed to disappear as soon as you got within 100yd of them.

On my boat, we got them by slow rolling up to the school. If they were still there when we made it within casting range, we'd cast small (40-80g) jigs as far as we could and twitch on the retrieve. It was solidly effective, but definitely made it tough to do more than sniping one, maybe two each siting.

It was suggested on iFish to troll really small swimbaits super slow near the jumpers if you want to stay on the troll... but that doesn't really seem to be up my alley.

The fish we were gutting onboard were loaded with tiny saury ( like 2" long). They seemed to be crushing on them, then would disappear and pop up a few hundred yards away. Seemingly mowing through a school of saury then busting on the next one. Which would explain why they'd seemingly disappear before we were close enough to spook them... but other times they'd disappear, re-appear a few hundred yards away, then be right off our bow 20sec later. Just really, really on the move.

Since this was a constant theme over a few day period, I think it's worth noting for future days like that for all of us. I'm sure those who like to do things on the fly would have an easier time getting the right size offering out there. I certainly thought about putting the 12wt behind the boat in the spread, but neither of my crew wanted to fight a 25lb+ albacore on a fly rod.

Any thoughts or experiences from the rest of the crew here?

 

[Cabezon]

Thus was the game the last few days which really made it tough for a lot of boats, especially those who stuck to the usually very productive troll programs.

Fish were jumping everywhere, but didn't seem to want to eat out of the troll spread, and seemed to disappear as soon as you got within 100yd of them.

On my boat, we got them by slow rolling up to the school. If they were still there when we made it within casting range, we'd cast small (40-80g) jigs as far as we could and twitch on the retrieve. It was solidly effective, but definitely made it tough to do more than sniping one, maybe two each siting.

It was suggested on iFish to troll really small swimbaits super slow near the jumpers if you want to stay on the troll... but that doesn't really seem to be up my alley.

The fish we were gutting onboard were loaded with tiny saury ( like 2" long). They seemed to be crushing on them, then would disappear and pop up a few hundred yards away. Seemingly mowing through a school of saury then busting on the next one. Which would explain why they'd seemingly disappear before we were close enough to spook them... but other times they'd disappear, re-appear a few hundred yards away, then be right off our bow 20sec later. Just really, really on the move.

Since this was a constant theme over a few day period, I think it's worth noting for future days like that for all of us. I'm sure those who like to do things on the fly would have an easier time getting the right size offering out there. I certainly thought about putting the 12wt behind the boat in the spread, but neither of my crew wanted to fight a 25lb+ albacore on a fly rod.

Any thoughts or experiences from the rest of the crew here?

Hi Evan,
I think that your observations and conclusions are exactly correct. Some of the albacore had small sauries in their stomachs. And your observation of fast-moving fish just grazing and moving was consistent with our experience.
Steve

 

[Evan B]

While Coltsnipers will always be my go-to jig on the boat, especially for the crew to throw... these were getting the job done for us on Saturday.

 

[SilverFly]

We've discussed using flies with conventional gear, such as behind a bullet weight, and think it's been tried with limited success. IIRC thoughts on that, besides the matching the hatch factor, was that the fly gear being more effective due to how the line tracked erratically in the propwash. The action imparted to the fly would be difficult to replicate. That said, I understand not wanting to fight donkey albacore on a 12wt. I normally use an 8.5' 14wt when trolling. I don't feel like there is any handicap involved landing 25-30# albacore on that rod.

 

[Evan B]

We've discussed using flies with conventional gear, such as behind a bullet weight, and think it's been tried with limited success. IIRC thoughts on that, besides the matching the hatch factor, was that the fly gear being more effective due to how the line tracked erratically in the propwash. The action imparted to the fly would be difficult to replicate. That said, I understand not wanting to fight donkey albacore on a 12wt. I normally use an 8.5' 14wt when trolling. I don't feel like there is any handicap involved landing 25-30# albacore on that rod.

For sure. If I could acquire a short 14wt like 8' at the longest, I'd honestly probably use it a lot more. Just plain don't enjoy lifting them up with a 9' rod and it's a big factor in me rarely deploying it. I'll keep my eyes out for such a thing as I definitely can see it being useful on days like Saturday.

 

[Evan B]

Hah, so apparently googling "14wt fly rod" brings up several pictures of me from like 10+yrs ago

 

[clarkman]

For sure. If I could acquire a short 14wt like 8' at the longest, I'd honestly probably use it a lot more. Just plain don't enjoy lifting them up with a 9' rod and it's a big factor in me rarely deploying it. I'll keep my eyes out for such a thing as I definitely can see it being useful on days like Saturday.

Whelp, it just so happens that my 8'3" 12wt fights more like 14 or 16....

Is that glass rod a Seele?

 

[Stonedfish]

Does anyone use anything like small Rapala X Raps for tuna when they are on the small baits?
SF

 

[Nick Clayton]

Saw the exact same thing the over the weekend. Seen it many times but not as much the last few years, and its always a PIA.

Back in the day we used to often do the slow troll swim bait program while keeping a steady chum line going, and it does work for sure.

Honestly though, referring to trolling specifically, flies are king here. Flies got bit consistently this weekend when a whole pile of boats couldn't get bit on the troll trolling normal stuff. The captain we were with both days was so impressed hes currently ordering T14 heads to attach to standard trolling rods to fish flies.

The problem, fly fishing wise, is that those fish will gobble flies on the troll and the slide but then things get tough. Once stopped those fish are HARD to get to eat a fly. Live bait crushes at that point. Jigs can get it done as well as sometimes just getting deeper can change their attitude.

Our fish were absolutely stuffed with saurie yesterday and we saw the same sort of quickly moving, feeding fish as you described, both days. However yesterday we spent a solid 2 hours surrounded by an insane amount of fish that were crashing saurie all around the boat but that wouldn't eat stripped flies. Frustrating.

It's worth pointing out that I've seldom seen this behavior when the fish are in the really beautiful blue water, and have seen it far more often in the dirtier blue/green water closer to the break.

 

[Evan B]

Does anyone use anything like small Rapala X Raps for tuna when they are on the small baits?
SF

I deployed one but it never got hit Saturday.

 

[SilverFly]

Saw the exact same thing the over the weekend. Seen it many times but not as much the last few years, and its always a PIA.

Back in the day we used to often do the slow troll swim bait program while keeping a steady chum line going, and it does work for sure.

Honestly though, referring to trolling specifically, flies are king here. Flies got bit consistently this weekend when a whole pile of boats couldn't get bit on the troll trolling normal stuff. The captain we were with both days was so impressed hes currently ordering T14 heads to attach to standard trolling rods to fish flies.

The problem, fly fishing wise, is that those fish will gobble flies on the troll and the slide but then things get tough. Once stopped those fish are HARD to get to eat a fly. Live bait crushes at that point. Jigs can get it done as well as sometimes just getting deeper can change their attitude.

Our fish were absolutely stuffed with saurie yesterday and we saw the same sort of quickly moving, feeding fish as you described, both days. However yesterday we spent a solid 2 hours surrounded by an insane amount of fish that were crashing saurie all around the boat but that wouldn't eat stripped flies. Frustrating.

It's worth pointing out that I've seldom seen this behavior when the fish are in the really beautiful blue water, and have seen it far more often in the dirtier blue/green water closer to the break.

Curious if the surface temps were on the warm side when they are acting like this? Probably no connection to what you're describing here, but I can recall some trips when the water was in the 68 degree range when they were super picky and very difficult to get them to come up. Getting deep was about the only thing that worked.

 

[Evan B]

Curious if the surface temps were on the warm side when they are acting like this? Probably no connection to what you're describing here, but I can recall some trips when the water was in the 68 degree range when they were super picky and very difficult to get them to come up. Getting deep was about the only thing that worked.

It was barely over 60 on Saturday for us.

 

[SilverFly]

For sure. If I could acquire a short 14wt like 8' at the longest, I'd honestly probably use it a lot more. Just plain don't enjoy lifting them up with a 9' rod and it's a big factor in me rarely deploying it. I'll keep my eyes out for such a thing as I definitely can see it being useful on days like Saturday.

Trying not to stray too far from Dirtbagville, but the 8.5' 14wt handles a lot better at the rail than you might think (apparently 6 inches is a LOT ) . It also still functions as a fairy wand provided it's properly loaded with a 600gr or heavier line. Not bombing out any 90' casts, but definitely works for most bait stop action.

 

[Evan B]

Trying not to stray too far from Dirtbagville, but the 8.5' 14wt handles a lot better at the rail than you might think (apparently 6 inches is a LOT ) . It also still functions as a fairy wand provided it's properly loaded with a 600gr or heavier line. Not bombing out any 90' casts, but definitely works for most bait stop action.

No by all means, this is one of those conversations that crosses over.

 

[SilverFly]

No by all means, this is one of those conversations that crosses over.

If you get a shorter/heavier rod to mix with a conventional troll spread, I'd be interested to see what you come up with for a rod holder adapter. I just hold mine when dragging flies, but I'm not running the boat. That or just run a T14 head on a conventional outfit like Nick is saying. I'll be very interested to hear how that works.

 

[Evan B]

If you get a shorter/heavier rod to mix with a conventional troll spread, I'd be interested to see what you come up with for a rod holder adapter. I just hold mine when dragging flies, but I'm not running the boat. That or just run a T14 head on a conventional outfit like Nick is saying. I'll be very interested to hear how that works.

Right now my solution is going to be to experiment running a section of sink tip on a conventional troll rod. This late in the season, the troll bite does tend to go this way... So I want to be ready with a solution that will get me running smaller stuff like this, and have it be effective. I think this could work well going that route. Just need to figure out the best method of connecting my 50lb mono topshot to the sink tip without it being too bulky to reel in to the guides. A loop-to-loop would be great, just need a mono loop that isn't super square.

 

[SilverFly]

Right now my solution is going to be to experiment running a section of sink tip on a conventional troll rod. This late in the season, the troll bite does tend to go this way... So I want to be ready with a solution that will get me running smaller stuff like this, and have it be effective. I think this could work well going that route. Just need to figure out the best method of connecting my 50lb mono topshot to the sink tip without it being too bulky to reel in to the guides. A loop-to-loop would be great, just need a mono loop that isn't super square.

Maybe use some JB hollow core to make a sleeve connection? Either that or skip the topshot and go directly braid to the sinktip with an FG knot? Drag setting would be a lot more critical, but fly hooks pretty much set themselves.

 

[Tuna Ball]

Does using a sink tip work better than just having a mooching weight ahead of the fly? Perhaps it tracks different in the water and imparts action?

 

[SilverFly]

Does using a sink tip work better than just having a mooching weight ahead of the fly? Perhaps it tracks different in the water and imparts action?

That's the idea. mooching and bullet weights track pretty straight. I've tried small hoochies and flies with bullet weights when they were keyed on small stuff. That works, often better than clones or cedar, but not as well as fly on a legit fly line. Fly lines are waiving around erratically side to side. Not crazy to the point of tangling with other gear (if set at proper distances), but within a path a couple feet wide.

 

[Stonedfish]

Maybe use some JB hollow core to make a sleeve connection? Either that or skip the topshot and go directly braid to the sinktip with an FG knot? Drag setting would be a lot more critical, but fly hooks pretty much set themselves.

Braided mono might work as well using the chinese finger trap technique with a couple nail knots on each end. It would likely be a bit bulkier the hollow JB. You could add some type of adhesive if needed, especially on the mono side. I'll have to check, but I believe I've got spools of 30 and 50 lb braided mono and can mail some to anyone who might want to try it for this application. Might also have some hollow JB as well.
SF