Seeking Input: Sit on top kayak

[Jake Watrous]

I’ve planned and built kayaks, and now planned and built a canoe, but am thinking about designing and building a sit-on-top kayak.

I’m seeking input from folks who’ve fished them for a while as my own experience is limited. What do you like about the model(s) you’ve used, and what do you wish they had or what do you believe could be improved?

 

[krusty]

Been flyfishing out of SOT kayaks for many years.

Be sure to construct a wide craft with plenty of secondary buoyancy and low enough cockpit walls that it's easy to hang legs over side to easily access rear cargo.

I'd highly advise fabricating a large forward well (essentially a big cockpit scupper) that can accomodate a Hobie 180 Mirage Drive...which is truly a gamechanger in kayak flyfishing. A rudder is also essential with a Mirage Drive.

We've seen your exquisite work. You're one of the few craftsman with the skills to actually build a SOT kayak.

 

[wanderingrichard]

As KRUSTY said, plenty of secondary stability a must.

I paddle. A high hull length to glide ratio is a plus. (Where are you taking it? Offshore? Longer and narrower, like 14-16 feet X 33-37 inches wide works well for example)

My main concerns are a clear clean deck, built in flotation, overall capacity with paddler since I'm a fat boy, good sealable hatches, a foot controlled rudder to correct for weather cocking, and a comfortable seat / cockpit that doesn't cause cramping or numbness.

Have an idea which plan set your going to go with ?

 

[Jake Watrous]

Been flyfishing out of SOT kayaks for many years.

Be sure to construct a wide craft with plenty of secondary buoyancy and low enough cockpit walls that it's easy to hang legs over side to easily access rear cargo.

I'd highly advise fabricating a large forward well (essentially a big cockpit scupper) that can accomodate a Hobie 180 Mirage Drive...which is truly a gamechanger in kayak flyfishing. A rudder is also essential with a Mirage Drive.

We've seen your exquisite work. You're one of the few craftsman with the skills to actually build a SOT kayak.

You’re over-generous about my abilities, but I appreciate the insights. I agree that a Hobie Drive is a necessity, I just need to research dimensions and ensure I can pull it up as needed. I love the shallow, clean draft of non-pedal drive boats, but like the pedal power.

 

[Jake Watrous]

As KRUSTY said, plenty of secondary stability a must.

I paddle. A high hull length to glide ratio is a plus. (Where are you taking it? Offshore? Longer and narrower, like 14-16 feet X 33-37 inches wide works well)

My main concerns are a clear clean deck, built in flotation, overall capacity with paddler since I'm a fat boy, good sealable hatches, a foot controlled rudder to correct for weather cooking, and a comfortable seat / cockpit that doesn't cause cramping or numbness.

Have an idea which plan set your going to go with ?

Thank you for your insights. I agree about high secondary stability. Ideally, I’d love to be able to stand in it, but to me secondary stability trumps primary stability, so that may not happen.

Puget Sound close-to-shore and bays, and Hood Canal would be my design focus, but it would pull double duty as a lake craft. I was thinking slightly more beam at waterline than my canoe has (36”) with a flaring hull instead of a tumblehome for better reflection of waves as I won’t need to worry about paddles. Minimal-to-no rocker as I don’t need to turn it on a dime, flat bottom with a skeg I can lower as needed to help it track. 17-18’ max length as I want to be able to extend a 9’ rod tip over bow and stern when fighting a fish. Upturned bow and stern (symmetrical) with decks made to sheet water off, as I’d prefer not to ship a lot of water.

I agree about having plenty of water-tight compartments, which the double-hull should allow for quite nicely.

Like I said, though, I’m still gathering ideas, and will look at what plans are out there, but the eventual design will be my own. It’s like designing and tying your own flies—much more fun.

 

[krusty]

I have two SOTs with center consoles, which are not as useful as I thought they'd be..actually get in the way. A good hatch in the cockpit deck between your legs is much more practical.

You might consider the Passport hull as a rough template. Very stable, shallow draft, and you could create a better (sharper) prow than its bulbous nose.

 

[Jake Watrous]

I have two SOTs with center consoles, which are not as useful as I thought they'd be..actually get in the way. A good hatch in the cockpit deck between your legs is much more practical.

You might consider the Passport hull as a rough template. Very stable, shallow draft, and you could create a better (sharper) prow than its bulbous nose.

Thank you!

 

[wanderingrichard]

Thank you for your insights. I agree about high secondary stability. Ideally, I’d love to be able to stand in it, but to me secondary stability trumps primary stability, so that may not happen.

Puget Sound close-to-shore and bays, and Hood Canal would be my design focus, but it would pull double duty as a lake craft. I was thinking slightly more beam at waterline than my canoe has (36”) with a flaring hull instead of a tumblehome for better reflection of waves as I won’t need to worry about paddles. Minimal-to-no rocker as I don’t need to turn it on a dime, flat bottom with a skeg I can lower as needed to help it track. 17-18’ max length as I want to be able to extend a 9’ rod tip over bow and stern when fighting a fish. Upturned bow and stern (symmetrical) with decks made to sheet water off, as I’d prefer not to ship a lot of water.

I agree about having plenty of water-tight compartments, which the double-hull should allow for quite nicely.

Like I said, though, I’m still gathering ideas, and will look at what plans are out there, but the eventual design will be my own. It’s like designing and tying your own flies—much more fun.

Sounds like you'd prefer a bit of a Greenland hull influence since you've mentioned the upturned bow and stern.

That would make an interesting SOT, for sure. I know of at least 3 people on NWKA and NCKA who've built their own using CLC or Feathercraft plans, and have incorporated the mirage drive options.

What you're getting ready to do is far beyond my abilities with wood. Should be a very creative project

 

[Jake Watrous]

Sounds like you'd prefer a bit of a Greenland hull influence since you've mentioned the upturned bow and stern.

That would make an interesting SOT, for sure. I know of at least 3 people on NWKA and NCKA who've built their own using CLC or Feathercraft plans, and have incorporated the mirage drive options.

What you're getting ready to do is far beyond my abilities with wood. Should be a very creative project

Thank you for the suggestion. I’ll check out Greenland hulls.

 

[Tallguy]

I think mirage drive is great to move, but pretty in the way for fly line. Always seems to get tangled in there or drop through the hole. Should think carefully about whether you want to fish from it.

I haven't gotten one, but I am looking hard at the Kaku Voodoo design for a totally clean deck for fly rod use.

 

[wanderingrichard]

This may or may not help

kayak hull shapes - Google Search

www.google.com

Going to add this then I'll shut up. It's an example of a Greenland hull design for a traditional sea kayak. I actually like the Bjorn thomasson design down the page a bit.

kayak hull shapes - Google Search

www.google.com

 

[Jake Watrous]

I think mirage drive is great to move, but pretty in the way for fly line. Always seems to get tangled in there or drop through the hole. Should think carefully about whether you want to fish from it.

I haven't gotten one, but I am looking hard at the Kaku Voodoo design for a totally clean deck for fly rod use.

Great point. Fishing would be the main purpose of the boat and the reason I’d wanted it to be easily retractable.

I hadn’t thought about things falling through the hole of the drive, but had thought about it for the scuppers and was planning them to be small and possibly slits like I built into the inner gunwales on the canoe.

 

[krusty]

I think mirage drive is great to move, but pretty in the way for fly line. Always seems to get tangled in there or drop through the hole. Should think carefully about whether you want to fish from it.

I haven't gotten one, but I am looking hard at the Kaku Voodoo design for a totally clean deck for fly rod use.

I've not had drive or drive well related tangle problems flyfishing from a Hobie, but that may be due to not standing up (which can result in its own line management problems)...I can cast at least 180 degrees from a sitting position and loose line safely resides on the cockpit deck between my legs. I suppose line management slobs could have issues and might benefit from wearing a little apron.

And unless the drive well is substantially larger than the drive the potential of flyline falling into it is a non-issue. Drive retractability is mainly useful when beaching a Mirage Drive craft; the fins tuck up tight to the hull if one pedal is in full back position (very advisable when playing a fish). A lot of people beach Hobies in such a manner on soft beaches without even retracting the drive.. Even in weeds you can 'flutter-kick' a Mirage Drive without much problem.

As for SOT scuppers in general, I've yet to have line or anything else swept into them.

From a constructability perspective I think scupper design and fabrication will be your biggest challenge. Sort of intricate for wood boat construction.

 

[Jake Watrous]

Scuppers won’t be too bad. Basically holes through the double hull. A dowel that has been drilled into a tube, coated in epoxy, then glued in place can serve well (I’ve used them as painter holes).

Here’s one sketch (going away from flat bottom in the interest of secondary stability)


but then when researching Greenland kayaks I found this. With just a few mods it seems almost perfect:

Metz Boats - M-Yak 500 Sit-On-Top Kayak

Baupläne und CNC-Kit für M-Yak 500 von Metz Boats in Stitch-and-Glue Bauweise

www-metzboats-de.translate.goog

 

[krusty]

Scuppers won’t be too bad. Basically holes through the double hull. A dowel that has been drilled into a tube, coated in epoxy, then glued in place can serve well (I’ve used them as painter holes).

Here’s one sketch (going away from flat bottom in the interest of secondary stability)
View attachment 74528
View attachment 74530
but then when researching Greenland kayaks I found this. With just a few mods it seems almost perfect:

Metz Boats - M-Yak 500 Sit-On-Top Kayak

Baupläne und CNC-Kit für M-Yak 500 von Metz Boats in Stitch-and-Glue Bauweise

www-metzboats-de.translate.goog

Cool...you might think about making your scuppers heavily reinforced and the right dimensions to allow the use of a kayak scupper cart (though I suppose you could fabricate your own).

Glad you're doing this and not me....I'd be awake all night thinking about how I'd handle such details! A fine and pleasant misery when I was young...but not so much nowadays.

 

[Jake Watrous]

Glad you're doing this and not me....I'd be awake all night thinking about how I'd handle such details!

That’s a lot of the fun of building boats. Also, I’m three-weeks deep into a several-week fishing marathon, and having experienced a lot of watercraft I can’t help but think of a sit-on-top as the current gap in my boat quiver (well, that and a 29’ Guadalupe, but that’s too big for the shop).

 

[krusty]

That’s a lot of the fun of building boats. Also, I’m three-weeks deep into a several-week fishing marathon, and having experienced a lot of watercraft I can’t help but think of a sit-on-top as the current hole in my boat quiver.

A forward and reversing Mirage driven (180 Mirage Drive) SOT is, in my opinion the ultimate small flyfishing still-watercraft. Fast, comfortable, highly maneuverable, constant contact with flyrod for strikes, stealthy, and least affected by wind and waves.

 

[Jake Watrous]

A forward and reversing Mirage driven (180 Mirage Drive) SOT is, in my opinion the ultimate small flyfishing still-watercraft. Fast, comfortable, highly maneuverable, stealthy, and least affected by wind and waves.

Yeah, solo fishing out of the 18’ canoe I’m pretty much at the mercy of the wind, and I’m thinking I need a solo boat. Regular kayaks suck for fishing out of.

 

[mcswny]

You're a monster

 

[Chadk]

Instead a mirage or peddle drive (old town), you could also consider allowing for an electric drive. Could be a simple minnkota motor mounted permanently or something that could be slipped on when needed. For permanent options, I've seen clever designs using RC controllers remote steering and thrust control.
They also have motors you can attach to the rudder.
But for more nuts and bolts.... some standard kayak accessory rails strategically placed would be good. Great for rod holders, fish finders, etc.

An anchor trolly could be a nice touch. Light pole. Shallow anchor pole.

Keel protection.

And be sure to consider how one would flip it back over if they dump it. And how they would be getting back in.