Petition: Statewide Protection of Resident Forms of Wild Steelhead

[Smalma]

Thank you for the thoughts. While I don't do much in-river salmon fishing these days I have in the past and selective gear rules would have an impact on those fisheries. Would the potential savings in what would amount to non-targeted C&R mortality during limited duration salmon seasons justify those impacts?

Setting aside that WA can do what it wants in setting restrictive regulations that go above and beyond anything mandated by the feds, just for logical consistency your post goes back to one of my original questions. If we adopt the view that O.mykiss resident and anadromous forms are indistinguishable parts of a larger population, are Puget Sound O.mykiss "threatened" under the ESA? I think of the Cedar River which has seen its anadromous O.mykiss component all but eliminated, yet last I knew its resident O.mykiss component is doing well.

While I'm sure that some folks would complain about losing bait in their salmon fisheries. That said in recent years many of the freshwater salmon anglers have had success without a bait, especially with coho and pinks. In fact, since 1996 all fisheries (game fish and salmon) on the main stem of the Stillaguamish has been with selective gear rules. It seems to remain popular with the local anglers during coho and pink seasons.

More to the point if the goal is to allow the development of resident rainbow populations with individuals living to ages 8 or more the use of bait will dramatically reduce the age/maturity structure of the resulting populations. This is especially true with populations where individual fish may be caught one or more times a year. The population dynamics differences between say a 35% (bait) and 5% (selective gear) release mortality per encounters. At those higher release mortalities rates there will be significant reduction in repeat spawners and the population stability those spawners provide.

Allowing the use of bait during the salmon seasons under cuts the basic goal of reducing mortalities unless one is willing to live with significantly shorter seasons (some combination of game fish and salmon seasons). I suppose managers could continue to go down the track of only allowing fisheries when salmon are harvestable fish. I for one would like to see increase protection while allowing continued fishing opportunities. Hard to see that happening without year-round selective gear rules.

Curt

 

[charles sullivan]

While I'm sure that some folks would complain about losing bait in their salmon fisheries. That said in recent years many of the freshwater salmon anglers have had success without a bait, especially with coho and pinks. In fact, since 1996 all fisheries (game fish and salmon) on the main stem of the Stillaguamish has been with selective gear rules. It seems to remain popular with the local anglers during coho and pink seasons.

More to the point if the goal is to allow the development of resident rainbow populations with individuals living to ages 8 or more the use of bait will dramatically reduce the age/maturity structure of the resulting populations. This is especially true with populations where individual fish may be caught one or more times a year. The population dynamics differences between say a 35% (bait) and 5% (selective gear) release mortality per encounters. At those higher release mortalities rates there will be significant reduction in repeat spawners and the population stability those spawners provide.

Allowing the use of bait during the salmon seasons under cuts the basic goal of reducing mortalities unless one is willing to live with significantly shorter seasons (some combination of game fish and salmon seasons). I suppose managers could continue to go down the track of only allowing fisheries when salmon are harvestable fish. I for one would like to see increase protection while allowing continued fishing opportunities. Hard to see that happening without year-round selective gear rules.

Curt

Is it your opinion that hose bait fisheries are having an affect on rainbow populations?

I have seen and heard of those big bows. I have always been curious as to why I never caught one when I fished more in the fall. Part of it is that I don't really target them. I rarely use bait, so if that is the ticket, I'm not going to the show.

Anyhow, I have never really thought that a lot were caught, even by the bait anglers. I don't recall hearing about them from my bait tossing brethren on the Nookie or Skagit. Anecdotal data tends to be poor data though.

 

[Smalma]

Charles -
A great question and my short answer is that yes bait fisheries are having impacts on the rainbow population, specifically the potential for older individuals.

As I have mentioned over the years I have been fortunate enough to see/sample some exceptional rainbows (fish in excess of 20 inches) in a number of north Sound basins. Typically those fish come from lightly fished sections or those with special regulations. Those larger fish (20 to 25 inches) were typically 8 to 10 years old. While those fish are far from common I think they do highlight individuals in the population if provided with protection.

Perhaps this simple example would illustrate the different effect of releases using bait and selective gear on a resident population.

Lets begin with a population of 100 6-to-8-inch rainbows (2 year fish?) Also assume a 35% release mortality with bait and a 5% with selective gear.
After release #1 that 100 fish population would be reduced to 65 fish with bait or 95 with selective gear.
After release # 2 that population would be reduced to 42 fish with bait and 90 with selective gear.
After release # 3 that population would be reduced to 27 fish with bait and 85 with selective gear.
After release #4 that populations would be reduced to 18 fish with bait and 81 with selective gear.
After release #5 that populations would be reduced to 12 fish with bait and 77 with selective gear.

I think the above makes it pretty clear that if the goal is to have a population with more older adult fish eliminating the use of bait is key.

Curt

 

[RCF]

Charles -
A great question and my short answer is that yes bait fisheries are having impacts on the rainbow population, specifically the potential for older individuals.

As I have mentioned over the years I have been fortunate enough to see/sample some exceptional rainbows (fish in excess of 20 inches) in a number of north Sound basins. Typically those fish come from lightly fished sections or those with special regulations. Those larger fish (20 to 25 inches) were typically 8 to 10 years old. While those fish are far from common I think they do highlight individuals in the population if provided with protection.

Perhaps this simple example would illustrate the different effect of releases using bait and selective gear on a resident population.

Lets begin with a population of 100 6-to-8-inch rainbows (2 year fish?) Also assume a 35% release mortality with bait and a 5% with selective gear.
After release #1 that 100 fish population would be reduced to 65 fish with bait or 95 with selective gear.
After release # 2 that population would be reduced to 42 fish with bait and 90 with selective gear.
After release # 3 that population would be reduced to 27 fish with bait and 85 with selective gear.
After release #4 that populations would be reduced to 18 fish with bait and 81 with selective gear.
After release #5 that populations would be reduced to 12 fish with bait and 77 with selective gear.

I think the above makes it pretty clear that if the goal is to have a population with more older adult fish eliminating the use of bait is key.

Curt

There you go getting all technical and factual on us....

Putting up facts that way really drives the point home. Thank you!

 

[Peyton00]

Many years ago, fishing the Carbon, there was a local guy that would throw a nightcrawler out there and drag it across the bottom to catch the resident rainbows. He was calling them steelhead because they were of a certain length.
It was a sad event to witness.

 

[Smalma]

Speaking of nightcrawlers -
During the mid-1980s I assisted the UW with hooking mortality study for sea-run cutthroat on the main Stillaguamish. One of the treatments (bait) was fishing nightcrawlers on a # 6 hook. For every 14 inch or larger (the minimum legal size) sea-run cutthroat caught 20 steelhead parr were caught. In other words, for every legal-size cutthroat caught on a nightcrawler between 6 and 7 steelhead parr were killed!

To be fair there were a lot of steelhead back in those days but maybe those kinds of impacts contributed to the depressed condition of steelhead today.

It was this sort of information that was used to establish the selective gear rules with wild game fish release on the Main Stillaguamish a decade later.

Curt

 

[Flymph]

Does anyone remember the closures of the Madison river years ago. The closures were varied to zero fishing, bank fishing only, float fishing only, etc. When some of the closed (zero) areas were reopened I witnessed some of the best fishing in my life!

Without disclosing a near by river, I can tell you with certainty that a pool with at least 20 steelhead was witnessed in a stream that has been closed for a few years. It takes time and patience.

 

[charles sullivan]

Charles -
A great question and my short answer is that yes bait fisheries are having impacts on the rainbow population, specifically the potential for older individuals.

As I have mentioned over the years I have been fortunate enough to see/sample some exceptional rainbows (fish in excess of 20 inches) in a number of north Sound basins. Typically those fish come from lightly fished sections or those with special regulations. Those larger fish (20 to 25 inches) were typically 8 to 10 years old. While those fish are far from common I think they do highlight individuals in the population if provided with protection.

Perhaps this simple example would illustrate the different effect of releases using bait and selective gear on a resident population.

Lets begin with a population of 100 6-to-8-inch rainbows (2 year fish?) Also assume a 35% release mortality with bait and a 5% with selective gear.
After release #1 that 100 fish population would be reduced to 65 fish with bait or 95 with selective gear.
After release # 2 that population would be reduced to 42 fish with bait and 90 with selective gear.
After release # 3 that population would be reduced to 27 fish with bait and 85 with selective gear.
After release #4 that populations would be reduced to 18 fish with bait and 81 with selective gear.
After release #5 that populations would be reduced to 12 fish with bait and 77 with selective gear.

I think the above makes it pretty clear that if the goal is to have a population with more older adult fish eliminating the use of bait is key.

Curt

I understand the math and difference in hooking mortalities. That all makes sense.

I just don't see or hear of many people catching rainbows while salmon fishing or fishing for rainbows. I am not saying that both don't happen. I am saying that I don't hear about it. I live a sheltered life of sorts when it comes to this. I fish less and less locally and I really don't "trout fish" at all. So my method of sampling the fishing population is pretty weak.

My buddy did hook a bull trout on the mainstem Nooksack with a plug the other day. I have seen a few dandy cutts landed in he same section (below Nugents) on spoons. I just have never come across rainbows in the portions of rivers that I fish for salmon.

I have caught some rainbows to good size in the Sauk above Darrington, years ago and seen rainbows in upper stretches of rivers but never really in the lower "salmon fishing" areas. I suppose that could be due to the incidental mortality killing those fish. I also don't know how much rainbows move within the system. That would be fascinating to understand.

I have no problem with eliminating bait. I can see some anglers getting pretty upset about it. I am not sure how else you are expected to catch one of the 10-15 hatchery steelhead going back to the Kendall Creek Hatchery.

If we start calling rainbows and steelhead the same thing, the whole ESA paradigm may change too. There was at least one bio who brought up to me that the prevalence of rainbows should be looked at and that some of the listings may be in error due to not looking at the resident life history as equal to the anadromous.

 

[charles sullivan]

I understand the math and difference in hooking mortalities. That all makes sense.

I just don't see or hear of many people catching rainbows while salmon fishing or fishing for rainbows. I am not saying that both don't happen. I am saying that I don't hear about it. I live a sheltered life of sorts when it comes to this. I fish less and less locally and I really don't "trout fish" at all. So my method of sampling the fishing population is pretty weak.

My buddy did hook a bull trout on the mainstem Nooksack with a plug the other day. I have seen a few dandy cutts landed in he same section (below Nugents) on spoons. I just have never come across rainbows in the portions of rivers that I fish for salmon.

I have caught some rainbows to good size in the Sauk above Darrington, years ago and seen rainbows in upper stretches of rivers but never really in the lower "salmon fishing" areas. I suppose that could be due to the incidental mortality killing those fish. I also don't know how much rainbows move within the system. That would be fascinating to understand.

I have no problem with eliminating bait. I can see some anglers getting pretty upset about it. I am not sure how else you are expected to catch one of the 10-15 hatchery steelhead going back to the Kendall Creek Hatchery.

If we start calling rainbows and steelhead the same thing, the whole ESA paradigm may change too. There was at least one bio who brought up to me that the prevalence of rainbows should be looked at and that some of the listings may be in error due to not looking at the resident life history as equal to the anadromous.

Also, the hatchery line above is meant mostly in jest.

 

[Pink Nighty]

Also, the hatchery line above is meant mostly in jest.

Obviously in jest, because 10-15 fish to kendall creek is a banner year!

 

[skyriver]

I think most of us are ok with bullets 1 & 2. It's 3 & 4 that are the pie in the sky that are very open ended that could spell the literal end to fishing many rivers in Washington.

 

[the_chemist]

Obviously in jest, because 10-15 fish to kendall creek is a banner year!

I just remember the kids from Yeager's that would floss them in the channel portion of kendall before they explicitly noted that section was indeed the creek and not a braid of thr NF

 

[speedbird]

Is it your opinion that hose bait fisheries are having an affect on rainbow populations?

I have seen and heard of those big bows. I have always been curious as to why I never caught one when I fished more in the fall. Part of it is that I don't really target them. I rarely use bait, so if that is the ticket, I'm not going to the show.

Anyhow, I have never really thought that a lot were caught, even by the bait anglers. I don't recall hearing about them from my bait tossing brethren on the Nookie or Skagit. Anecdotal data tends to be poor data though.

If we are talking about gear type impact, nothing has caught me more juvenile Steelhead than fishing a bead. I hate to say I probably killed one in the Snohomish a couple years back, and my only fish to hand my last OP trip was a shiny bright smolt last September. That one was fine but I can see a combination of beads and big salmon hooks killing a lot of baby Steelhead and rainbows compared to something like a large spinner

 

[Paige]

If we are talking about gear type impact, nothing has caught me more juvenile Steelhead than fishing a bead. I hate to say I probably killed one in the Snohomish a couple years back, and my only fish to hand my last OP trip was a shiny bright smolt last September. That one was fine but I can see a combination of beads and big salmon hooks killing a lot of baby Steelhead and rainbows compared to something like a large spinner

Beads are eggs, Steelhead dont know the difference!

 

[SeaRunner]

While I'm sure that some folks would complain about losing bait in their salmon fisheries. That said in recent years many of the freshwater salmon anglers have had success without a bait, especially with coho and pinks. In fact, since 1996 all fisheries (game fish and salmon) on the main stem of the Stillaguamish has been with selective gear rules. It seems to remain popular with the local anglers during coho and pink seasons.

More to the point if the goal is to allow the development of resident rainbow populations with individuals living to ages 8 or more the use of bait will dramatically reduce the age/maturity structure of the resulting populations. This is especially true with populations where individual fish may be caught one or more times a year. The population dynamics differences between say a 35% (bait) and 5% (selective gear) release mortality per encounters. At those higher release mortalities rates there will be significant reduction in repeat spawners and the population stability those spawners provide.

Allowing the use of bait during the salmon seasons under cuts the basic goal of reducing mortalities unless one is willing to live with significantly shorter seasons (some combination of game fish and salmon seasons). I suppose managers could continue to go down the track of only allowing fisheries when salmon are harvestable fish. I for one would like to see increase protection while allowing continued fishing opportunities. Hard to see that happening without year-round selective gear rules.

Curt

Thank you for the posts. My prior question was limited to whether banning bait during what amount to limited in duration and location salmon seasons would have a measurable effect on steelhead abundances. That was the original context of this thread. I agree that if the basic goal is to reduce resident rainbow mortalities and allow the development of resident rainbow populations with older age individuals then a ban on bait, either fully or partially, would further that. We are all talking about degrees and trade offs. Failure to do that is what leads to proposals like the crazy one from WSC.

You point to the Stillaguamish as an example where selective gear rules were imposed for all species. How are its steelhead doing? How much angling opportunity is that river providing?

 

[Smalma]

SeaRunner -
I understand where you are coming from and I expect that is the sort of consideration the State would consider if the issue actually gets on the table. My own opinion is that leaving major chunks of the year (2 to 4 months) without protection for the juvenile steelhead/resident rainbows negates much of the benefit from the protection provided for the rest of the year. Am also sure that in the angling world that opinion is a minority one.

Regarding the Stillaguamish steelhead, over the last 20 years the winter steelhead has been relatively flat at a depressed level while there is some information that the Deer Creek summer steelhead have increased a bit. The Stillaguamish and its anadromous fish is the classic illustration of the multiple facts that are limiting their abundance. I suspect that a dominate factor in the basin is that the largest 9 flood events since 1928 have occurred since 2000. Those events had a magnitude that historically would have to be considered to have been 500- or 1,000-year events. The instream habitat damage caused by 4 or so such events a decade has to be limiting.

Curt

 

[charles sullivan]

Beads are eggs, Steelhead dont know the difference!

I don't believe that beads kill as many as bait and I'm an avid non-beader. It's not just being hooked, it's where the fish is hooked. There is also the sulfite issue that seems to kill fish.

 

[charles sullivan]

Went coho fishing yesterday. My friend and I hooked fish on plugs, jigs, spinners and eggs. We fished the upper part of a river that @Smalma knows quite well just below the hatchery. I have only ever fished this section a handful of times. The most successful time was a guided trip where we fished eggs mostly.

In agreement with @Smalma and his post above, my fishing partner caught a rainbow of 15-16 inches in a large eddy pool. It took a pile of eggs under a float. It ate them deep. I cut the line rather than try and retrieve the hook. Will the fish live? I don't know. I would not put the probability of living as being very high. Seems like rainbows in this section are likely to see a whole lot of eggs from September through November. I don't think that I will fish eggs there anymore, although truthfully did not yesterday since I rarely fish anything requiring a float and I own 0 grams of cured eggs.

So, there it is, anecdotal evidence that those rainbows are caught in salmon fisheries. I asked for it and found it myself.

I also know that the section of river that we were fishing has less steelhead spawning than other sections. There is a hatchery that historically got a lot of steelhead back to it. It is dam controlled and is pretty much a trench for quite a bit of it, limiting the habitat complexity. I thought to myself that maybe this is the perfect section to protect rainbows from this sort of mortality. After all this is the section that could use a few extra rainbows in the mix during spawning, potentially.

I am curious if the female residents spawn with male "steelhead". Can and do those off spring become ocean bound? I had always assumed that it's the resident males that are getting into the action, but I don't know why I would assume that.

Other than that it was a lovely day to be on he big river. Great company, enough fish and there is nothing quite as enjoyable as rowing a river.

 

[Smalma]

Charles -
The upper Skagit (Marblemount bridge to power) has the exactly the kind of regulation we are talking about, selective gear rules and catch and release except for hatchery steelhead. That regulation has been in place since 2008. The Sauk and Cascade above Rockport-Cascade Road bridge also have been under those regulations since 2008.

See resident bull trout, cutthroat, and rainbow males spawning with larger anadromous females though on local waters don't see it all that often with steelhead/rainbow. (few resident rainbow's?). Can not ever recall seeing a resident size female (say less than 15 inches) spawning with an anadromous female. It is not all that rare to see a 3 or 5 #male (could be anadromous or resident) spawning with a larger female. During peak spawning those smaller males would be reduced to sneak spawning. At the edges of the spawning period those smaller males could potentially be the dominate male.

One of those 10-year rainbows I talk about was a heavily scared male that we postulated had been battling with larger anadromous males.

On waters with resident rainbows larger than say 12 inches see them caught on bait during the general winter seasons were bait is allowed.

And can imagine a situation where the freshwater salmon model is used rivers with listed steelhead to close all fishing to protect steelhead parr, resident rainbows and wild steelhead. I would much prefer the model I proposed even with the salmon fishers hardship than complete fishing closures and am of the belief that widespread use of selective gear (with some enforcement) would be effective in addressing those encounter concerns.

Curt

 

[charles sullivan]

Charles -
The upper Skagit (Marblemount bridge to power) has the exactly the kind of regulation we are talking about, selective gear rules and catch and release except for hatchery steelhead. That regulation has been in place since 2008. The Sauk and Cascade above Rockport-Cascade Road bridge also have been under those regulations since 2008.

See resident bull trout, cutthroat, and rainbow males spawning with larger anadromous females though on local waters don't see it all that often with steelhead/rainbow. (few resident rainbow's?). Can not ever recall seeing a resident size female (say less than 15 inches) spawning with an anadromous female. It is not all that rare to see a 3 or 5 #male (could be anadromous or resident) spawning with a larger female. During peak spawning those smaller males would be reduced to sneak spawning. At the edges of the spawning period those smaller males could potentially be the dominate male.

One of those 10-year rainbows I talk about was a heavily scared male that we postulated had been battling with larger anadromous males.

On waters with resident rainbows larger than say 12 inches see them caught on bait during the general winter seasons were bait is allowed.

And can imagine a situation where the freshwater salmon model is used rivers with listed steelhead to close all fishing to protect steelhead parr, resident rainbows and wild steelhead. I would much prefer the model I proposed even with the salmon fishers hardship than complete fishing closures and am of the belief that widespread use of selective gear (with some enforcement) would be effective in addressing those encounter concerns.

Curt

I want to make sure that I understand what you are saying correctly.

You rarely see resident female rainbows spawning in areas where anadromous (steelhead) females are spawning or where anadromous (steelhead) males would be fertilizing their eggs. Is that true?

I think that is what you wrote above.

Other thoughts of mine:

I suspect that the size of the fish corresponds with the size of the gravel. Small females push smaller gravel. So, maybe we miss identify 5+ lb resident rainbows as anadromous (steelhead) because they look like steelhead at that size. So much is sampling done by helicopter and boat, that here is no way to say that it's anything else. I mean no one is going to be looking at a 5 or 6 lb spawning resident rainbow and be able to say, that it is not a steelhead. Could that also be the case? Maybe that is also why you used the 15 inch mark above because at some point in size, one can not really tell them apart? I have seen 5lb rainbows in PS streams, so they are there. Certainly some streams have more than others.

The question that I was trying to get at is whether resident female rainbow offspring are likely to go to the ocean and if so at what rate. I am betting that we rally don't know. Any thoughts?

If they do go to the ocean at some rate, do they return as summers or winters? Seems like the Elwa fish came back as summers. Could an increase in female resident spawners lead to a greater population of PS summer runs? Probably another unknown?

We hooked salmon on all types of gear yesterday. So, eggs (bait) are really not needed to put fish in the boat. I have only really started salmon fishing a few years ago. I use plugs more than anything. They work. Spinners, spoons, jigs, plugs all work well for coho. I don't fish for kings in the river. I don't know how much less effective angling without bait is for them. Certainly chums and pinks do not require bait. I guess what I'm saying is that selective gear seems to not get in the way when fishing for most salmon species in rivers.