Trolling issues

[Kado]

I have problems keeping trout pinned while trolling from one location on a lake to another. This morning got quite a few aggressive grabs but lost almost all of them. I was using a #14 mini leech with a full sink line. I don't seem to have a problem if I'm stripping....it's only when I'm trolling. I've tried holding the rod pointed at my fly, sideways, and up at an angle. I've done upward and sideways hook sets.
One big grab and maybe a headshake....and gone. Maybe I need to not crimp my barbs as much....but no problem with a regular strip set.
Any help appreciated. Beautiful morning on a local lake.

 

[ABITNF]

I fish from a pontoon boat and while searching for chironomid shucks, a hatch or fish on the bottom I kicktroll with a couple of lines out and find it productive. What I don't do is use a wet line. I use my chironomid set up minus the indicators with leaders up to 28 feet and sometimes more. Most wet lines, even those that claim to be density compensated will not sink evenly in a straight line from fly to rod tip. Often what you are likely feeling is the tail end of the strike just as the fish is spitting it out. A wet line will bow in an arc where the belly will be closest to the bottom. On any take you have to lift that line so it creates an in-line connection from fly to you. That's easier to do when you are lifting a long mono or fluoro leader which cuts through the water easier than a thicker plastic coated fly line. This set up reverses the curve too so there's not as much line to pick up for the hook set. Keep in mind that a wet line wants to go to the bottom while a dry line wants to float. This means less arc in the latter.

Try a dry line and see if that improves your success ratio.

 

[Tom Butler]

Point your rod tip down for a straight taught line. Loosen your drag so the tippet won't snap on the take. The straight tight line will have enough tension to hook the fish most times. A shorter 60ft. line enough. When in doubt, slow down and then slow down. Keep your fingers off the line so the reel is free.

I gave this a try today and it worked fine.

 

[Tim L]

I always start this one with, "It's not you."

Lots of good tips on methods already; mainly I'd consider the part that relates to the other end of your line - meaning this one has way more to do with the fish than it does you. Keep in mind, they tend to behave collectively, especially where feeding is concerned. One way you can divide it up: Bite is off, bite is approaching, bite is ramping up, bite is fully on, bite is tapering off, bite just turned off, bite has been off a while. Then also think about varying durations, cycles, food sources, conditions - all of which affect activity, intensity, how they strike or if they strike at all.

You can see where I'm going here. Hopefully that gives a decent idea of what might affect your success or lack thereof. I've had the 90-100% unpinned rate an unlimited number of times and it always goes the same. I've also had that exact scenario with them sticking on virtually every strike - same methods, same tricks, same everything. From a lot of hours, experimenting and observation, their behavior, driven by the above concerning the bite/feeding would be your culprit.

Understanding all that is the easy part. Accepting and living with it is another story.

 

[Tom Butler]

I always start this one with, "It's not you."

Lots of good tips on methods already; mainly I'd consider the part that relates to the other end of your line - meaning this one has way more to do with the fish than it does you. Keep in mind, they tend to behave collectively, especially where feeding is concerned. One way you can divide it up: Bite is off, bite is approaching, bite is ramping up, bite is fully on, bite is tapering off, bite just turned off, bite has been off a while. Then also think about varying durations, cycles, food sources, conditions - all of which affect activity, intensity, how they strike or if they strike at all.

You can see where I'm going here. Hopefully that gives a decent idea of what might affect your success or lack thereof. I've had the 90-100% unpinned rate an unlimited number of times and it always goes the same. I've also had that exact scenario with them sticking on virtually every strike - same methods, same tricks, same everything. From a lot of hours, experimenting and observation, their behavior, driven by the above concerning the bite/feeding would be your culprit.

Understanding all that is the easy part. Accepting and living with it is another story.

Sounds a bit like your book, and I'm making use of it. It seems the stocked fish tend to stay in groups, and while one planting may be off, or short hitting, moving to a different group area, which may be in the feeding mode, may find them committing better and hooking up more often, even with the same fly.

 

[Kado]

I always start this one with, "It's not you."

Lots of good tips on methods already; mainly I'd consider the part that relates to the other end of your line - meaning this one has way more to do with the fish than it does you. Keep in mind, they tend to behave collectively, especially where feeding is concerned. One way you can divide it up: Bite is off, bite is approaching, bite is ramping up, bite is fully on, bite is tapering off, bite just turned off, bite has been off a while. Then also think about varying durations, cycles, food sources, conditions - all of which affect activity, intensity, how they strike or if they strike at all.

You can see where I'm going here. Hopefully that gives a decent idea of what might affect your success or lack thereof. I've had the 90-100% unpinned rate an unlimited number of times and it always goes the same. I've also had that exact scenario with them sticking on virtually every strike - same methods, same tricks, same everything. From a lot of hours, experimenting and observation, their behavior, driven by the above concerning the bite/feeding would be your culprit.

Understanding all that is the easy part. Accepting and living with it is another story.

Usually when I'm doing something and it's not working as well as it seems it should...it is me! : ). BTW...also really enjoyed your book.
I've noticed, at least with myself, I can forgive missing an indicator strike a lot more than missing a tug...and I love the tug.

 

[Divad]

I fish from a pontoon boat and while searching for chironomid shucks, a hatch or fish on the bottom I kicktroll with a couple of lines out and find it productive. What I don't do is use a wet line. I use my chironomid set up minus the indicators with leaders up to 28 feet and sometimes more. Most wet lines, even those that claim to be density compensated will not sink evenly in a straight line from fly to rod tip. Often what you are likely feeling is the tail end of the strike just as the fish is spitting it out. A wet line will bow in an arc where the belly will be closest to the bottom. On any take you have to lift that line so it creates an in-line connection from fly to you. That's easier to do when you are lifting a long mono or fluoro leader which cuts through the water easier than a thicker plastic coated fly line. This set up reverses the curve too so there's not as much line to pick up for the hook set. Keep in mind that a wet line wants to go to the bottom while a dry line wants to float. This means less arc in the latter.

Try a dry line and see if that improves your success ratio.

I think you’re thinking the sinking line is not straight but it is, the line runs a straight line from tip to fly. Negates the bow effect you speak of.

I’ve actually never had the problem nor heard of others completely deviating from sinking lines for such. 28ft of tippet on a slip bobber just sounds like a hell, opinion interjected.

@ABITNF if you’re in SW WA I’ll lend you a 4wt sinker to change your mind. And I’ll attach a slip bobber (and noose).

 

[ABITNF]

I think you’re thinking the sinking line is not straight but it is, the line runs a straight line from tip to fly. Negates the bow effect you speak of.

I’ve actually never had the problem nor heard of others completely deviating from sinking lines for such. 28ft of tippet on a slip bobber just sounds like a hell, opinion interjected.

@ABITNF if you’re in SW WA I’ll lend you a 4wt sinker to change your mind. And I’ll attach a slip bobber (and noose).

Actually not all sinking lines sink in a straight line. And in the BC interior when fishing chironomids long leaders like this are pretty common and not difficult once you have a few feet of the fly line outside the tip.

 

[Divad]

Actually not all sinking lines sink in a straight line. And in the BC interior when fishing chironomids long leaders like this are pretty common and not difficult once you have a few feet of the fly line outside the tip.

But nor does a bobber. Your fulcrum is now floating out in front of you and pendulums in variation with your speed. Long bobber leaders can lead to more slack if not accounted for in weight.

I have a hard time believing any significant difference is going to take place in a full sink line. Maybe 10 years ago but tungsten application has improved with tapers. Your largest fulcrum would be leader/line, but that’s adjustable with fly weight, tippet density, and length. Crazy enough I even use this fulcrum to my advantage floating boobies off smooth shoals.

I think there is room for both, but wouldn’t discount one completely. I’ll admit my prefernce leads me away from long bobber rigs but not to throw out the tactic entirely.

 

[Tom Butler]

If I only have my indicator rod I usually just move the float up (deeper) about 1-2' from where I was and troll to the next spot. It's bobber down quite often this way. Some days I think the bobber draws the fishes attention, no matter how deep the fly.

 

[ABITNF]

But nor does a bobber. Your fulcrum is now floating out in front of you and pendulums in variation with your speed. Long bobber leaders can lead to more slack if not accounted for in weight.

I have a hard time believing any significant difference is going to take place in a full sink line. Maybe 10 years ago but tungsten application has improved with tapers. Your largest fulcrum would be leader/line, but that’s adjustable with fly weight, tippet density, and length. Crazy enough I even use this fulcrum to my advantage floating boobies off smooth shoals.

I think there is room for both, but wouldn’t discount one completely. I’ll admit my prefernce leads me away from long bobber rigs but not to throw out the tactic entirely.

I'm not talking about leaving the indicator on for trolling. I just often use the long leader, minus the indicator because I find it more effective than a wet line. I have on many occassions dragged the same leech behind me on the dry and long leader set up on one line and a type III sink intermediate on another and the dry line has always outfished the wet every time. So much so I never use the wet line now.

There's no wrong and no right way for a lot of this. Whatever works for you or anyone else is what I highly recommend.

 

[Tom Butler]

Whatever works for you is what I highly recommend.

Edited it a little, hope that's OK. Lots of good info in here. I was back to my normal way today, just feels right and it works.

 

[Tim L]

Usually when I'm doing something and it's not working as well as it seems it should...it is me! : ). BTW...also really enjoyed your book.
I've noticed, at least with myself, I can forgive missing an indicator strike a lot more than missing a tug...and I love the tug.

Really appreciate your kind words -- Tom you too!

 

[dflett68]

Understanding all that is the easy part. Accepting and living with it is another story.

i'm just barely past the denial stage and working on the anger stage. acceptance....i need more therapy.

this is a great thread!

 

[Brian Miller]

I have problems keeping trout pinned while trolling from one location on a lake to another. This morning got quite a few aggressive grabs but lost almost all of them. I was using a #14 mini leech with a full sink line. I don't seem to have a problem if I'm stripping....it's only when I'm trolling. I've tried holding the rod pointed at my fly, sideways, and up at an angle. I've done upward and sideways hook sets.
One big grab and maybe a headshake....and gone

I don't fish lakes a lot (yet) but might changing the proportions on a streamer with a "bushy" tail (ex. leech-bugger) so the tail barely extends beyond the hook bend result in better hookups-fewer lost fish?

That is a good observation. I sort of experienced that, but the issue was more the old mustad hooks were not very sharp. A good sharp hook should get in.

I doubt that you are setting too hard. More likely the opposite. Most people put more line out when trolling than casting. Then when a fish hits they have a lot more extra line stretch to deal with. A normal hook set with 100’ of line out and a soft rod will hardly move the fly at all, it’s all absorbed by the rod and the line stretch. Speeding up when a fish hits can help keep them on until you can strip in enough line to get it actually tight enough to set the hook.

Something that has seemed to work for me besides very sharp hooks on lakes and streams (especially downstream) is after the initial tug and (downstream) hookset, when I feel weight on the line is to give a 2nd deliberate but controlled hookset.

 

[gpt]

never had your lake problems. sharp hooks, bent down barbs, keep the line tight and the rod bent. all the best in the future.

 

[skyriver]

One big grab and maybe a headshake....and gone.

Question- After the big grab and before gone...Are you grabbing the reel or are you grabbing (and stripping) the line? If you're trying to keep a fish on the reel on a slow to moderate, long line troll, your odds of landing one are slim. Especially if you stop trolling. Even with a large arbor reel.

If I'm trolling slow by kicking or even on the oars then I will nearly never fight that fish (at least initially) on the reel. Those buggers like to come right at you. They most likely had to swim up behind your fly right? They were already headed towards you. Hatchery fish are the worst for this. Gotta strip like a mad man so try to keep the feet kicking and rod back/lean back if necessary.

Fast trolling is different-
I like to troll fast in my Commander (think kayak with oars instead of paddle), which means both hands are on the oars. I set my rod just a bit up from pointing at the fly. In fact, it's usually resting on my fin since my feet are out of the water. The reel needs to be a click & pawl or drag set very low. That reel is tucked behind the apron so a fish can't drag the whole setup into the water.
When I get a hit I actually take one or even two more big strokes to speed up the ship before grabbing the rod. And by the time I grab the rod it's either already over or...the fish is solidly on the reel with no slack. And even then there are plenty of times when I have to strip like crazy.
Same thing with the electric motor in the boat or even gas motor in the boat.

Cheers,
Stacy

 

[RCF]

@skyriver - a very loaded question you asked with a lot of 'it depends' in response...

I prefer a reel with drag set to minimize whiplash but little more than that. Whiplash is the death sentence of catching a fish. I also prefer some reel drag to help set the hook when the reel is not in my hand upon the initial strike... IMHO I prefer to keep constant tension on the line so that the hook does not have some slack due to a release of the tension. Therefore I keep moving against the fish until it is very close by.

Now more to 'it depends'...

I have fished a lot of lakes and there are some generalities. I can tell the size of the trout within a few seconds of the bite. It helps me determine the approach of how to bring the fish to the boat/net. 22 years fishing the lake I am near to has provided some of that insight.

Run away freight train - my main goal is to keep the fish away from structure, reeds, sunken trees, etc. Immediately go to the center of the lake and pray!

24"+ trout - they gonna do what they gonna do. Head to the center of the lake. Lots of luck!

18" to 20"+ trout - Huge jerks and dive deeper. Come up, swim at the floatable and when they see the boat/pontoon - Dive! Dive! Dive!. Be ready for it and be glad you have some drag on the reel. A couple of runs and the fish is ready to be released.

16" trout - they may give up early, may dive some, and always flap around just when you want to release them.

12" to 14" - pull a couple of times, resign themselves to being caught, and glad when they are released...

 

[gpt]

got rid of all of my click and pawl reels. when i would troll a fly, the rod was pointed at the fly. the take was usually firm and final. not sure what is going on when you keep missing fish, not something i encountered. but i did not lift the rod just let the line run and then put the fish on the rod and reel. lifting the rod may be a part of your problem try a different technique.

 

[tkww]

IMO it's about how soon you can add a pronounced hookset. Like @RCF , if I have two hands on the oars my first move on a strike is to rock the 'toon back with my body weight while giving it as hard of a paddle as I can. Then drop the oars and grab the rod. And then a hard strip to make sure the hook is home. I find that keeps them on much better than dropping the oars, grabbing the rod and then setting the hook.

When casting and stripping sinking lines I have a better landing ratio when I set as soon as possible. Always adding a strip if I can to remove.I realize "as soon as possible" sounds a bit well duh, but I find my landing ration goes way up if I truly focus on it. Even a 10th or two of a second seems to really change the ratio. It doesn't make for the most relaxing situation, and it does mean good line and stripping hand management so that I have room to add a strip on the hookset.

Admittedly, I'm not dealing with BC-size fish. 2x or 3x when trolling and breaking off isn't an issue.

 

[gpt]

IMO it's about how soon you can add a pronounced hookset. Like @RCF , if I have two hands on the oars my first move on a strike is to rock the 'toon back with my body weight while giving it as hard of a paddle as I can. Then drop the oars and grab the rod. And then a hard strip to make sure the hook is home. I find that keeps them on much better than dropping the oars, grabbing the rod and then setting the hook.

When casting and stripping sinking lines I have a better landing ratio when I set as soon as possible. Always adding a strip if I can to remove.I realize "as soon as possible" sounds a bit well duh, but I find my landing ration goes way up if I truly focus on it. Even a 10th or two of a second seems to really change the ratio. It doesn't make for the most relaxing situation, and it does mean good line and stripping hand management so that I have room to add a strip on the hookset.

Admittedly, I'm not dealing with BC-size fish. 2x or 3x when trolling and breaking off isn't an issue.

never had to do a 'hook set' when trolling. if a fish grabs your trolled fly, it is already hooked.