Spring/summer chinook and glacial till... How much visibility is needed?

[jb_fishes]

I've been dark on WFF for about a year and a half now since I've been at school trying to wrap up my Bach. of Sci. or working in the back country doing electrofishing/habitat surveys so when I tried throwing this thread up on WFF I was surprised to see none of the regulars. So I created a new account here when I found out you guys had mostly all switched over.

Anyways, I know chinook don't get quite as much love around here as steelhead but since talk about steelhead on here these days is griping about Kendall Creeks inability to get fish to return or a slew of threads about how to fish the 'Duc' at least thats what it looks like on WFF these days. I've been trying to swing a chinook for a couple years now and have hooked a few that never made it to hand but I also haven't been able to get out much recently till now. I've always been fond of spring and summer chinook due to their unique life history and ability to pull like a Mac truck so as I've improved as a swing fisherman my desire to hook one has also increased. Some rivers I have been interested in fishing for them however, more years than not, are quite silty and even off color by July which is often also the peak migration for the run, thus the reason I was curious enough to make a thread about it.

I've seen some videos from B.C. where guys are catching fish in what looks like only a foot of visibility so that has jogged my curiosity otherwise a few of these rivers I am interested in seem to be unfishable. I plan on using 10ft sections of T11 and T14 paired with a massive upstream mend or two as well as 25lb mono to a semi-sparse marabou two stage intruder in black and purple with a flashy body and beefy dumbbell eyes if that helps. My main thoughts are:
What is the least amount of visibility needed to still have a chance at having my fly seen?
Would I be constrained to overcast summer days or early mornings before the sun has really had an effect on the turbidity?
Do any of you guys have any experience swinging chinook or other salmonids in 1-2' of visibility?

My thought process was that maybe if I had a solid 1' of visibility minimum and I take baby steps down the run (should fish be holding there) then I should have a pretty good chance. I feel like I am pretty good at getting really deep when I need to and a larger but sparse black and purple intruder should show up well and get down quick. Let me know your thoughts if you have any expertise in this sort of fishery, I'd appreciate it.

Cheers everyone.

 

[Pink Nighty]

Sounds to me like you're on the right path. I've been on my own similar journey on my local river, which is an upstream glacial fishery. It's been rough. Lot of hours for one tug and an LDR last year. But it came about 6am and on a similar fly to what you describe. And it was not on the bottom by any stretch, I'd need 20ft of t20 to bump bottom in that run in june. Fished it mostly with a gear buddy who had similar tough luck on roe and jigs.

FWIW I wasnt noticing a significant daily fluctuation on clarity, either to my eye or on turbidity readings. May be a quirk of my river though.

Swinging from sunrise to sundown on the solstice is one of the coolest experiences of my life.

 

[Josh]

Solid thread! Looking forward to hearing more.

So I created a new account here when I found out you guys had mostly all switched over.

Welcome!

May be a quirk of my river though.

And that river has many....

 

[Pink Nighty]

And that river has many....

Its damn hard to apply general fishing wisdom to that river, and hard to apply what you learn there elsewhere.

But fuck it 10 weeks til swinging season woohoo!!

 

[brownheron]

I've caught 20 or so swinging on the Skeena/Copper/Kemano using technique similar to what you describe above. 14' 9wt w/ 660gr skagit and 15' of t14. I don't recall ever having more than 1-2' viz, usually more toward the former. It's a long day.

I'm probably pushing 80+ caught on my local river with gear. Near zero luck with flies but I gave up a few years back, may give it another go this year as I have good access. I know my fly is in front of fish as I know the river very well, they just don't bite. Viz seems to have very little correlation with catching. More important is finding unspooked fish (I think people may confuse low light fishing with fully rested fish), get the best presentation and have the right bait. For fly fishing, the first two are critical AND you need to be swinging in front of a large number of fish in order to find the 1-in-100 that will bite a fly.

In the Skeena and often in my local river, we're fishing the thalweg which tends to have heavy current = needs heavy gear. That combined with very spooky fish leads to better results with lower viz. That's my hypothesis anyway.

They are adapted to those conditions and I think low viz affects them a lot less that we think due to our tendency to anthropomorphize.

Anecdote - a guide friend told me about a spey fishing class in July where they happened to spot a pod of springers near a bridge. They positioned everyone on the bridge to watch while the guide and a student made a cast. Even though they were cautious and cast way upstream, before the fly got within 30' of the fish, the springers took off down stream like they were headed back to the pacific.

Good luck. Springers are the king of kings when it comes to anadromous fish.

 

[gpt]

chinook i have caught, i never count fish, were all hooked on the bottom. if you are not bouncing rocks you are too high in the water column. so you could weight your flies, or use fast sinking heads, all up to you and how you like to fish. the flies i tie for chinook are black chenille with a silver wrap, 5 turns to be exact, white wing on top, sparse. i like to use stainless hooks for this fishery, #4/0, because after you get tired of the wrestling match, just point the rod at the fish tighten the line and the hook will straighten out releasing the fish, i assume you have bent the barb down or broken it off, bend it back and go hook another one. i like to use a 10wt for all of this but i find that is a matter of choice, just have some fun.

 

[Tom Butler]

I used to fish those milky rivers around glacier peak, but not with a fly. Our philosophy was the less visibility, the more commotion in the water, to help them find it. Like switching from a rooster tail to a mepps with bucktail then the vibrax came along. Some things translate, but I don't know if this helps.

 

[Pink Nighty]

I'll be the POS willing to ask the pressing questions. Anyone gunk up their flies with scent where regs allow and vis is an issue?

If so, what have you used and how effective have you found it? Zero luck with shrimp smelly jelly and I feel like it screwed up the action of the fly.

 

[Tom Butler]

I'll be the POS willing to ask the pressing questions. Anyone gunk up their flies with scent where regs allow and vis is an issue?

If so, what have you used and how effective have you found it? Zero luck with shrimp smelly jelly and I feel like it screwed up the action of the fly.

We did a blue glove test with steelhead. Anecdotally we found keeping human scent down was best, for hardware and yarn rigs, but the actual scent didn't seem to matter. And eggs or shrimp without an additive were as good as with. But it's a small sample, and in the snake area.

 

[Smalma]

Please do your fellow anglers a solid and make sure that the section river you are fishing is open for salmon fishing and more importantly Chinook at the time you are fishing. Folks harassing Chinook here on some of our north Sound rivers is costing legitimate angler fishing opportunities. Once rivers are closed "protect salmon" it has proven to be a bitch to get seasons back.

Those anglers that persist in that sort of active given anglers blackeyes in the eyes of the public and other users.

Curt

 

[Pink Nighty]

We did a blue glove test with steelhead. Anecdotally we found keeping human scent down was best, for hardware and yarn rigs, but the actual scent didn't seem to matter. And eggs or shrimp without an additive were as good as with. But it's a small sample, and in the snake area.

Mr. Butler, you are a resource for everything from classic trout tactics to pure dirtbaggery. I love it!

Any tips on removing scent? Or is it prevention only?

 

[Pink Nighty]

Please do your fellow anglers a solid and make sure that the section river you are fishing is open for salmon fishing and more importantly Chinook at the time you are fishing. Folks harassing Chinook here on some of our north Sound rivers is costing legitimate angler fishing opportunities. Once rivers are closed "protect salmon" it has proven to be a bitch to get seasons back.

Those anglers that persist in that sort of active given anglers blackeyes in the eyes of the public and other users.

Curt

This is true, and as of now there is no spring salmon season on my river, however I expect there to be one again this year. Last year saw a large chunk of the season lost to asshattery unfortunately.

 

[Tom Butler]

Mr. Butler, you are a resource for everything from classic trout tactics to pure dirtbaggery. I love it!

Any tips on removing scent? Or is it prevention only?

We keep a little dish tub with some dawn in it and a small brush. Wash hands and scrub terminal gear. Somewhere I recently posted a picture with a chinook at columbia park. I think you can see the tub in that shot, (no it and the gloves are in the live well). We found cleaning up the Brads and the flasher made a difference in our success. There is a piece posted online about how migratory fish react to human scent in the Bonneville fishways. With trout I really don't think it matters. I handle all the gear and sometimes change flies when smoking my pipe. Maybe it's just one of those myths, I don't know.

 

[Pink Nighty]

We keep a little dish tub with some dawn in it and a small brush. Wash hands and scrub terminal gear. Somewhere I recently posted a picture with a chinook at columbia park. I think you can see the tub in that shot. We found cleaning up the Brads and the flasher made a difference in our success. There is a piece posted online about how migratory fish react to human scent in the Bonneville fishways. With trout I really don't think it matters. I handle all the gear and sometimes change flies when smoking my pipe. Maybe it's just one of those myths, I don't know.

I find this really interesting in the sense that they would avoid human smell yet often swim right up to me in the river or swim through a bunch of fishing bears. I'm also unsure of where or why, at a species level, they would acquire the aversion to human scent. Fish are weird.

If everything got cleaned with dawn soap, are you sure that's not your secret scent? Little bubble trail to bring em in?

 

[Tom Butler]

I find this really interesting in the sense that they would avoid human smell yet often swim right up to me in the river or swim through a bunch of fishing bears. I'm also unsure of where or why, at a species level, they would acquire the aversion to human scent. Fish are weird.

If everything got cleaned with dawn soap, are you sure that's not your secret scent? Little bubble trail to bring em in?

Like I said, I'm not sure. It may just also be that was one of the changes made after not doing well for a while that that was part of the routine when we started to hit much more regularly. I guess I just like to fiddle as much as fish.

 

[HauntedByWaters]

On April 4, 2009, I was fishing at the mouth of the Baker River for steelhead and hooked what I thought was my biggest steelhead ever only to find it to be a springer. A real freight train of a fish and something I’ll never forget. It was on a sculpin fly.

The springers I have hooked in June, during low visibility were IMO, I know this is unpopular opinion, flossed. If you find a 2-3 foot deep run with low visibility and tons of springers rolling, I feel like the chances of flossing are high swinging a fly. This has been the case when I have hooked them in low visibility. They are rolling everywhere and getting my fly in their face is easy to do.

I know they will bite, I just think extremely low visibility with big fish packed in like that means many are flossed. I personally prefer to short float roe for springers in these situations.

 

[singlehandjay]

Hit soft shallower edges of the tailout with a muddler on a floating line. Remember the lower visibility will let them feel more comfortable in shallower water and will lie in those holds. Sometimes you'll end up with trout, steelhead or even a bull. No flossing required. Don't be fooled into thinking a king won't come to the top

 

[Rvrfisher360]

On April 4, 2009, I was fishing at the mouth of the Baker River for steelhead and hooked what I thought was my biggest steelhead ever only to find it to be a springer. A real freight train of a fish and something I’ll never forget. It was on a sculpin fly.

The springers I have hooked in June, during low visibility were IMO, I know this is unpopular opinion, flossed. If you find a 2-3 foot deep run with low visibility and tons of springers rolling, I feel like the chances of flossing are high swinging a fly. This has been the case when I have hooked them in low visibility. They are rolling everywhere and getting my fly in their face is easy to do.

I know they will bite, I just think extremely low visibility with big fish packed in like that means many are flossed. I personally prefer to short float roe for springers in these situations.

100%

 

[SilverFly]

I used to fish the Sandy River in Oregon a lot. It's glacial and the visibility at times is best described as "Latte". Based on what I've seen, there is a point at which visibility shuts down the bite, but that point is significantly less than 1' vis. My guess is the fish can see silhouettes against the lit surface better than we can see looking down into the water. At least that's what I assume since dark patterns worked in a narrow depth band just above the holding zone seem to work best. Of course, it also helps if your opportunities are maximized by tons of fish - which used to be the case with coho on the Sandy.

I'm with you though on thinking chinook are under rated as fly quarry. Springers especially. I can count my fly-caught springers on one hand, and would have to use the other hand and most of my toes to count the fish I've lost. There are only two kinds of fish in freshwater I've tangled with that I would compare to turbo-charged ocean pelagics, or flats fish. Early spring-run summer steelhead, and fresh spring chinook. Although late-season (N-type) coho when they first hit the river come in a close third (mostly due to the aerobatics). Best ass-kickings I've had on a river.

Please post some reports, successful or not. Good luck!

 

[Pink Nighty]

Hit soft shallower edges of the tailout with a muddler on a floating line. Remember the lower visibility will let them feel more comfortable in shallower water and will lie in those holds. Sometimes you'll end up with trout, steelhead or even a bull. No flossing required. Don't be fooled into thinking a king won't come to the top

I havent tried this but it does jive with my experience, as limited as that is. Fish hold where it is safe and easy to do so. Yes, chinook can find an acceptable blend of those factors in deep heavy water, but I cant touch them with a fly. I could throw 20ft of t20 quartered upstream and still not get down to them.

But I could absolutely swing fat muddlers through the shallow soup. That's gonna get some run