Dry Fly Leader Length

Aleforme

Steelhead
Forum Supporter
So a couple weekends ago, I was doing some dry fly fishing on lake bank and did pretty well but I notice I was having some trouble getting the fly to lay/extend out.

I was using a 5wt 9ft rod with a 9ft 3x Tapered leader and would tie either 5X or 3X tipper to the end once it had been cut back a bit from changing out fly. I notice the leader would lay out pretty well but the added tippet would die off and land in a bit of a mess. To be honest, I was probably in the 8 to 10 ft range for length with the tipper additions. I did notice from time to time the tapered section of the leader would also land in a mess as well.

I know part of this is my lack of casting skills but for the most part, I'm about cast well in the 20 to 35 foots range. Able to place flies where I want them.

Just wondering if there would be any benefit to going with a shorter 7ft leader like overall for dry fly casting? I was throwing dry flys ranging from #10 Chubbies to #14 Caddis and Humpies for reference. It was when I was throwing the smaller Caddis and Humpies that I was having the most trouble.

I haven't really tried building leaders at this point but might do so in the future. Just trying to keep it "simple" for now.

Jim
 

Tom Butler

Grandpa, Small Stream Fanatic
Forum Supporter
Here is one thought, was your fly the wrong size for the tippet being fished? There needs to be enough material to transfer the energy from the fly line, through the leader, and all the way out to the fly. Maybe your fly was too bushy? Also did your cast have enough snap to run the energy out the distance you were fishing. 5X and #14 humpy would be pushing it for me as well. 2-3' of your desired end tippet size maximum, if needed splice/tie in an intermediate diameter, it will help transfer energy and turn over.
1660678053524.png
 
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Aleforme

Steelhead
Forum Supporter
Here is one thought, was your fly the wrong size for the tippet being fished? There needs to be enough material to transfer the energy from the fly line, through the leader, and all the way out to the fly. Maybe your fly was too bushy? Also did your cast have enough snap to run the energy out the distance you were fishing. 5X and #14 humpy would be pushing it for me as well. 2-3' of your desired end tippet size maximum, if needed splice/tie in an intermediate diameter, it will help transfer energy and turn over.
View attachment 27859

Thank you!

I might have miss-matched the fly and tippet so that's a possible cause. Might have been throwing the larger flies on smaller 5X tippet.

Do you think there would be any improvement in using a shorter overall leader that would include the 2-3 feet of desire tippet length? Maybe a 7.5 tapered instead of a 9ft?
 

clarkman

average member
Forum Supporter
Do you think there would be any improvement in using a shorter overall leader that would include the 2-3 feet of desire tippet length? Maybe a 7.5 tapered instead of a 9ft?

Yes! That will help instantly. Then, as you get more comfortable, you can lengthen/lighten things up (depending on fly size of course). Honestly though, I've been fly fishing for a helluva long time and I still use the shortest leader I can get away with. More often than not, that's 8' and under. Obviously, there are certain situations that call for longer and lighter, but not most.

That tippet chart that Tom posted will be very useful for you as well.

Oh, also....if you feel like you need to take a lesson to get control of your casting in general, an in-person lesson is typically going to be far more beneficial that any posted advice on an internet forum.
 
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tkww

Steelhead
Thank you!

I might have miss-matched the fly and tippet so that's a possible cause. Might have been throwing the larger flies on smaller 5X tippet.

Do you think there would be any improvement in using a shorter overall leader that would include the 2-3 feet of desire tippet length? Maybe a 7.5 tapered instead of a 9ft?
Shorter will be easier to straighten out. That said, it is likely your casting that's mostly the cause. Paying attention to your stop and minimizing your drift after the stop (at least for those distances) is helpful.

Also make sure you're not starting your back cast too soon. (Turn your head and watch your back cast!!!! It's one of the most important things you can do to improve your casting.) Starting the forward cast too soon will cause the fly to whiplash around end end of the back cast. This usually manifests as the fly hitting/hooking the line or leader on the forward cast. (Also the primary cause of wind knots, IMO.) But it also robs efficiency and can contribute to a leader not straightening out. And remember, the longer your cast, the longer it's going to take to straighten out. Again, watch your back cast.

Matching tippet to fly size will help some, but honestly you can get away with some deviation if you can cast well. But you might as well give yourself as much of a chance as possible and try to match. Personally I'd try 4x, as I find there's considerable flexibility/limpness difference between 4x and 5x. Good for drifts, bad for straightening. And yes, if you cut too far back into the taper, adding an intermediary piece of something thicker to maintain the taper will help.

Also, casting into the wind--even a slight breeze--can really make straightening the leader a challenge. The lighter or bushier the fly, the worse it is. If you find yourself in that scenario, power your rod further down and into the wind before stopping. (By which I mean, if you were going to normally stop your rod at 10:30 or 11, power it through to 9:30 or 10 before stopping.) You really have to drive the cast into a headwind.
 

Tom Butler

Grandpa, Small Stream Fanatic
Forum Supporter
Paying attention to your stop and minimizing your drift after the stop (at least for those distances) is helpful.

Matching tippet to fly size will help some, but honestly you can get away with some deviation if you can cast well.
Yes, I agree with the others that shortening will help. I said snap, but as @tkww it's the stop that launches the line. Could be casting faults as well. I have had your issue carrying a lot of line in the air at my max range.
Try building a couple leaders with ultragreen, lots of formulas online. A short and a long. I bet you will see the short will turn anything over, and a long one turns over better than the store bought tapered leader. You could add your own tippet if you want something a hair softer, more flexible. Some material transfers energy better than others. Might help discover which variable is causing problem, the leader or the casting. This turned over the hopper, bead head dropper rig the other day with another 3' 3x off the end..
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Aleforme

Steelhead
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Wow, thanks everyone for the help and tips.

I think I’ll shorten up my overall leader length and continue to work on my cast of course. Mainly trying to give myself the best opportunity to cast flies well or at least more consistently

I’ll also probably tie up some leaders as well. I mentioned 7.5 foot leaders because that seems to be a standard size of pre-made leaders. Is it possible or make sense to go a little shorter? I guess it comes down to spooking trout at some point with the heavy more visible fly line.

Thanks again for all the help. Taking lots of notes!
 

tkww

Steelhead
I’ll also probably tie up some leaders as well. I mentioned 7.5 foot leaders because that seems to be a standard size of pre-made leaders. Is it possible or make sense to go a little shorter? I guess it comes down to spooking trout at some point with the heavy more visible fly line.
Typical leader formulas are 40/40/20 (butt, taper, tippet). Hand-tied leaders often have one step/taper in the butt. But point being, at only 20% for tippet, you're down to 18" of tippet, and that's before tying a single knot, let alone additional fly changes. So no I wouldn't go shorter. Granted with lake fishing I'd be a little less worried about tippet length, but still, you'd be out of tippet in no time.
 

claude

Smolt
Forum Supporter
What tkww said. Longer leaders require a bit slower cast as you want the leader to straighten completely on the backcast. Wait to feel the backcast loading the rod. Don't rush the forward cast; let it start to unfold but then you can give it a bit of a paintbrush flick to straighten it out.
 
I believe you might consider using what are called tippet rings and that way the terminal material has a clear defined dimension and when it gets short just tie more material to the tippet ring and its easy to guage when more is needed. I believe it will make some of that guesswork more evident. I have used tippet rings for years now and it makes more sense to me.
 

jaredoconnor

Peabrain Chub
Forum Supporter
I use the longest Harvey style leader that I can tolerate casting; something in the range of 12-18ft, depending on the scenario. I always want it to land with a lot of slack.



 

Aleforme

Steelhead
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I believe you might consider using what are called tippet rings and that way the terminal material has a clear defined dimension and when it gets short just tie more material to the tippet ring and its easy to guage when more is needed. I believe it will make some of that guesswork more evident. I have used tippet rings for years now and it makes more sense to me.

I agree, rings might be a good way to go for me.
 

Aleforme

Steelhead
Forum Supporter
I use the longest Harvey style leader that I can tolerate casting; something in the range of 12-18ft, depending on the scenario. I always want it to land with a lot of slack.





That's an interesting video. But, I need to improve my casting a bit before jumping into a leader that long.
 

Aleforme

Steelhead
Forum Supporter
Thanks everyone for the responses. I think I'm going to make sure I have the right size tippet for the fly I'm using and go a little shorter on the leader down to 7.5ft. See how that works for me and then work my way up to longer leaders as needed.
 

Tom Butler

Grandpa, Small Stream Fanatic
Forum Supporter
Thanks everyone for the responses. I think I'm going to make sure I have the right size tippet for the fly I'm using and go a little shorter on the leader down to 7.5ft. See how that works for me and then work my way up to longer leaders as needed.
Good luck with it. I like to put a ring on right where the tapered leader part ends (I use the micrometer and tie at 0x or 1X). then use other tippet. I just don't care for the tippet on premade leaders, seems to long or limp for my taste(?). I spend a bunch of time, especially after a couple fish, just trying out rigging stuff. Try your #14 humpy with a 12" 3x, then try 2', then 3', and see how it turns over. Try it with the 5x and see the difference. Try it with a same size nymph or softhackle and watch it lay out (or not). Maybe try a different brand tippet. I start by dividing hook size by three for tippet (I can't memorize that chart, and I think it's based on old school wets), then go thicker by one for bushy flies, and 2 for sinking flies with coneheads helps roll them over. The time I spend trying stuff pays off in the long run, as I gain confidence in riggings and my catch rate goes up. It's hard to change mindsets but trust me, it's worth it.
 
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Old Man

Just a useless Old Man.
Forum Legend
Yes, I agree with the others that shortening will help. I said snap, but as @tkww it's the stop that launches the line. Could be casting faults as well. I have had your issue carrying a lot of line in the air at my max range.
Try building a couple leaders with ultragreen, lots of formulas online. A short and a long. I bet you will see the short will turn anything over, and a long one turns over better than the store bought tapered leader. You could add your own tippet if you want something a hair softer, more flexible. Some material transfers energy better than others. Might help discover which variable is causing problem, the leader or the casting. This turned over the hopper, bead head dropper rig the other day with another 3' 3x off the end..
View attachment 27879
These are a lot of knots to clean the entire river surface from bank to bank. I've always used a tapered leader.. I have no trouble laying out the entire leader. When I use a short rod I use a 7'6" tapered leader. Sometime I even add more tippet. On my 9'ers I will use a 12' tapered leader. But I've been throwing flies around since the 50's. It gets easier when you fish more years.
 

Tom Butler

Grandpa, Small Stream Fanatic
Forum Supporter
I just had a thought, if you got surface gook you may not want knots in your leader, or as few as possible, as just like subsurface they then to pick up debris and spoil everything. No one size fits all as we all know as each situation is unique. Seems like you got a solid plan anyways, go for it!
 

Zak

Legend
Forum Supporter
"9ft 3x Tapered leader and would tie either 5X or 3X tipper to the end "

Tying 5X tippet to a 3X leader could make a bad transfer of energy/hinge at the sudden diameter change. More so if (a) you had clipped the leader back already so it was thicker than 3X, and/or (b) the 5X tippet section was long. Do remember if you had the same problem when you tied 3X tippet to a 3X leader? For 98% of my trout fishing, I have a 9 ft 4X factory tapered leader and when it is new, I don't use tippet. I use tippet to replace the thin part where I have been clipping it off.
 
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